Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

OP posts:
Ridcully82 · 13/08/2022 20:24

I still find "dead name" when "former name" is meant difficult: no one is dead. And it minimises the loss of actual death.

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

ivejustgotthis · 13/08/2022 20:34

Have never respected the Madeley before! Yes, support flows both ways, and a name is a name - and women think through losing their family names at marriage (obvs don't have to), and also taking on the name to sound like their mother in law which is weird. So people have to do all sorts of mental gymnastics about names. Very rigid navel gazing thinking from the sibling.

dropthevipers · 13/08/2022 20:35

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

The drama, such as it is, is being caused by the trans person. Why do they get to dictate the chosen name of the Little one? These tantruming toddlers need to get a fucking grip.

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:36

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

But it is an important name to the pregnant woman. What if you were descended from Emmeline Pankhurst - would feel miffed if you could not use it? Or just a much loved parent or grandparent's name?

Repeated family name use is a bit out of fashion but not entirely (The Royal family seem to name every other child Elizabeth, Diana, Louis or Philip). My sibling and I used the same middle name for two of ours and never thought about it.

I hope she stocks to her guns and uses it.

OP posts:
ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:38

Ridcully82 · 13/08/2022 20:24

I still find "dead name" when "former name" is meant difficult: no one is dead. And it minimises the loss of actual death.

Yes, it is rather sad when looked at like that (I'm not being sarky). People who find actual religion talk about being re-born which at least has a joyous sense about it. But to talk about deadening or killing off your former self is very hard on your present self.

OP posts:
ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:39

Agreed @ivejustgotthis

OP posts:
CherryBlossomAutumn · 13/08/2022 20:41

I would say if I was the sister that some things are not all about her brother! And just move on and call my baby whatsoever I liked.

IsadoraQuagmire · 13/08/2022 20:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EL8888 · 13/08/2022 20:46

@junebirthdaygirl l don’t think picking your own child’s name is drama! She can call her child what she wants, literally nothing to do with her sibling. I wouldn’t engage with the debate. But then my brother isn’t interfering and controlling

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 13/08/2022 20:48

I think "not everything is about you" would fit this situation rather well.

achillestoes · 13/08/2022 20:55

I really dislike the word “deadname”. It’s unhealthy. They changed their name. Nobody died.

achillestoes · 13/08/2022 20:57

‘Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling.’

Just use the pronouns I want.

Just call me my new name.

Just pretend people can change sex.

Just name your baby what I say.

Somanysocks · 13/08/2022 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Humbold · 13/08/2022 21:56

I can't imagine a universe where I'd give a thought to my sibling's opinion on my child's name.Absolutely none of their business.

Is the sibling objecting because they get triggered by hearing their previous name? Well tough titty. But I suppose the big question is how on earth does the pregnant woman know what sex their baby is - surely it hasn't been 'assigned at birth' yet?

And then we have the contentious concept of a 'dead name'. Many of us baulk at that descriptor and many gender believers are scathing about the use of 'transwidow' and find it highly offensive and transphobic.

I suggest that someone who uses the phrase 'deadname' has no right to think it outrageous, cruel and offensive to use the phrase 'trans widow'. And vice versa obvs 🙂

chesirecat99 · 13/08/2022 22:01

Superficially, I agree but even though his family were supportive of him transitioning and he was previously close to his sister, isn't this more about what happened before when he had that name? I can see that for some people their old name could be triggering and very hurtful, like having a sibling name their baby the same as your childhood bully, the OW or an abusive ex. I can't read the letter in full as it is behind a paywall but surely it depends on his experiences while he had that name, whether he was bullied or had serious mental health issues as a result of being transgender?

ivejustgotthis · 13/08/2022 22:25

Naming the child after the sibling would be odd; she is naming it after the ancestor who was a suffragette and a scientist, who has the same name. The sibling doesn't have that name anymore (it's dead, RIP)

waltershite22 · 13/08/2022 22:27

achillestoes · 13/08/2022 20:57

‘Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling.’

Just use the pronouns I want.

Just call me my new name.

Just pretend people can change sex.

Just name your baby what I say.

Yes.

Inamuddle36 · 13/08/2022 22:34

I agree with most of the points above and think the sibling does not have the right to put restrictions on the baby’s name.
However, at some point the child might learn the uncle previously was a girl (unless all family photos are destroyed) and might learn she shared a name and might perhaps feel uncomfortable??

dandelionthistle · 13/08/2022 22:42

Hmm, I don't really think anyone except the parent/s should get a say in a baby's name, but I can also see why the sibling feels weird about it. That was literally their name for, I imagine, at least 15 years. Both siblings surely associate the name more with the trans sibling than with their ancestor.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/08/2022 22:44

This week, I found someone asking on a transgender reddit whether it was reasonable, post-transition, to ban one's friends from having acquaintances that had one's former name/deadname.

I still haven't worked out whether this is a genuine question or someone trolling the reddit members.

thread

A friend of a friend has my deadname and each time I hear it I feel very uncomfortable. I know it's their name, but I just get triggered by hearing it. Also, I'm fairly new to my chosen name, so maybe in ten years I wouldn't mind, but right now it makes me feel unsafe.

So what do I do? Should I tell my friend to not talk about that person anymore because of my deadname and that I don't want to be around the person in general, thus having to let them know my deadname? Do I just quit the friendship I have with them or distance myself for some time? And out of interest: Would it be reasonable to have it as a boundary to not start a friendship with someone who has my deadname or is in proximity to someone with my deadname?

I know that there is not one answer, but my issue right now is that I don't know how to handle this situation that makes me very uncomfortable. And somehow there isn't much information to find about this topic on the internet. So I'd be open to suggestions or examples of how you handled this kind of situation.

Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’
Justme56 · 13/08/2022 22:51

Alternatively the trans sibling could get some mental health support to overcome the triggering.

EL8888 · 13/08/2022 23:00

@PurgatoryOfPotholes l like to think troll. But who knows

MrGHardy · 13/08/2022 23:05

So what does the 'brother' do when meeting people who have the 'deadname'?

Entitled twit.

ivejustgotthis · 13/08/2022 23:05

PurgatoryOfPotholes I wouldn't want to make things more difficult for someone with mental health problems but this is the sisters choice.