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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dear Richard Madeley: ‘My transgender brother is furious with my choice of baby name’

133 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 13/08/2022 20:14

Interesting piece on the agony uncle pages of the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/dear-richard-madeley-transgender-brother-furious-choice-baby/

The key point is that a pregnant woman who has a transman sibling wants to name her baby after a female ancestor who was important to them as she (ancestor) was a suffragette and a scientist. Transman sibling has stopped to talking to her because the ancestor's name is also the transman's deadname. The writer of the letter and the wider family had supported the transman through transition and had previously had a good relationship.

Richard's reply is that she should name the baby what she likes and to "tell your brother to grow up. There’s already one baby on the way.
"You say he had full family support during his trans journey. Well, support flows both ways. Tell him how important it is to you to honour your ancestor. And why shouldn’t you? Is this valued family figure – part of ALL your collective pasts – destined to become a sort of non-person simply because of your brother?
As for him refusing to speak to you over this… well, really. He’s being over-dramatic and, frankly, ridiculous. In fact, if the naming of his little niece is the biggest thing in his life he has to worry about, he’s an extremely lucky man."

Which I thought was very good advice.

It does raise interesting questions about the nature of a deadname.

If dead then surely can be re-used? If there is still an issue then it is not dead at all. Say the deadname was Sally and the transman is now Fred then it suggests philosophically there is still a Sally-iness about Fred, if it really was a dead name there would not be. And that is why Fred is uncomfortable. If there never was any Sally to Fred and just Fred waiting to come out then surely the Sally name should be available to use within the family for others??

I wonder if a situation with the married surname of a woman who divorces and wants to never hear her ex-name again is structurally similar?

Mrs Smith goes back to being Miss Jones. Changes her documents and never, ever, ever uses the name again. Miss Jones would still have to use Smith on any document that says 'any other name you have been known by'? Surely? Is Miss Jones every really able to lose the Smith completely? would she really expect never to hear it again?

And say the married name was unusual like Fernsby. Women can choose to change their name or not. What if a friend or a cousin or sister met another Mr Fernsby and wanted to marry and take the name Fernsby, would anyone think it reasonable if the women for whom that name was 'dead' objected to the name change and having another Mrs Fernsby in the family even if the name was a traumatic one where there had been DV or soemthing?

Those of us who do change our names have our MIL, and SIL possibly too, all the same Mrs xxxx as we are. Possibly even the ex-wife too! Maybe more than one ex-wife!! Are woman just more used to having odd name associations and changes?

Although this story is a transman I associate the deadname issue more with transwomen for some reason. Maybe because women expect and evolving name identity?

OP posts:
For · 13/08/2022 23:07

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

Oo yes why should a pregnant woman get to choose the name of her baby when there is a sacred trans person around, we all know that trans people must have 100% of attention at all times and get to dictate to everyone around them. God forbid a woman should have an opinion about her baby.

🙄

FlibbertyGiblets · 13/08/2022 23:19

achillestoes · 13/08/2022 20:57

‘Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling.’

Just use the pronouns I want.

Just call me my new name.

Just pretend people can change sex.

Just name your baby what I say.

Yes, it is stark when laid out so plainly.

TullyApplebottom · 13/08/2022 23:20

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

Indulging a narcissist is never a good idea.

FunnyBeaux · 13/08/2022 23:22

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

Sorry but fuck off to that. The only people who have a saying the baby's name are its parents.

SortOfAdmireQuagmire · 13/08/2022 23:27

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

Are you taking the piss? Her baby, her choice.

Musomama1 · 14/08/2022 10:04

I can understand the discomfort, I'd feel weird if my sibling used my first name as their kiddies names.

I'd use it as a middle name hopefully as a compromise.

i don't think it's a bad thing that some things in life are informed by family, like weddings, kid's names. Sometimes you have to keep the peace and be the grown up.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 14/08/2022 10:11

Sometimes you have to keep the peace and be the grown up.

Oh, I agree so much with this. Sometimes you have to accept that, despite what you believe, the world doesn’t actually revolve around you and your narcissistic navel-gazing ego and actually your sister has the right to name her baby whatever she damn well pleases.

Or is that not what you meant about which one of them has to keep the peace and be the grown up? 🙄

WellThatsMeScrewed · 14/08/2022 10:19

Sorry but if a name is that triggering they need mental health support. Rather than the world trying to mould around them.

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2022 10:29

Well whadda surprise to find that it's the woman's job to keep the peace and shut up rather than the man's.

Funny how 'identifying as a woman' is never about taking on the mantle with things like that, isn't it?

Tallisker · 14/08/2022 10:37

I think in this case it's a transman- ie a woman or girl who identifies as a man, TheKeatingFive

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/08/2022 10:38

One of my siblings named a child after me (family name) but also added they 'changed the spelling because my name was dull'. I lived.

TheKeatingFive · 14/08/2022 10:39

I think in this case it's a transman- ie a woman or girl who identifies as a man

In that case apologies.

I guess they actually are nailing the identifying bit.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 10:39

I saw a screen grab of someone on Reddit who wanted their partner to stop seeing a new friend because the new friend had the name they were originally given (hate the term dead name).

In no other circumstances do we tell children that if they don't like the name their parents chose to go ahead and pick another name. And expect the parents not to be hurt or upset that the name they spent ages choosing (in most cases) is so dreadful that it can never pass anyone's lips ever again.

This constant repetition that whatever a trans person demands must be granted or it's transphobia is unbelievably damaging. And that no one else's feelings or perspectives are relevant.

DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 14/08/2022 10:48

Well Richard Madeley has gone up in my estimations. The transman needs to respect her sisters opinion and try to understand her motivation for using the name. They then might begin to understand that not everything relates to or centres them, and that they might find some things in the world 'triggering' but this is their issue and nobody else's to deal with.

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 11:25

Are you taking the piss? Her baby, her choice.

I think I'd feel differently if it were a former name, but I must say I wouldn't like a sibling using my name for their child. It would feel odd, like something was being taken from me. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but that's how I feel. The same wouldn't apply to friends' children though, just within the family.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 14/08/2022 11:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

When did that deletion message start?

I don't know what was said but as an official deletion message that I weird. Has anyone noticed it before? I'd like to report it with a bit more information to go on!

Ameanstreakamilewide · 14/08/2022 11:37

I thought the same thing @SamphirethePogoingStickerist

It's a new one for me, too. The monitors never have a day off, do they??

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/08/2022 11:42

OakAshBeech · 14/08/2022 11:25

Are you taking the piss? Her baby, her choice.

I think I'd feel differently if it were a former name, but I must say I wouldn't like a sibling using my name for their child. It would feel odd, like something was being taken from me. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but that's how I feel. The same wouldn't apply to friends' children though, just within the family.

Times change I suppose. In previous era, calling your child after a sibling was seen as one of the highest marks of esteem and affection between the two siblings.

But anyway, the mother is not calling her child after the sibling, but after a distinguished ancestor. The current sibling is not using that name anyway, having discarded it in performance of a higher ‘truth’. So the name is ‘vacant’.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/08/2022 11:42

I hope she doesn’t invite her sibling to be a god parent.

fifteenohfour · 14/08/2022 11:50

@Ridcully82 everything in trans rights is the most extreme version of reality, dead name, highest murder victim group (they're not) highest group to endure exclusion (they're not) most oppressed people in the world (they're not).

thirdfiddle · 14/08/2022 11:55

I wouldn't personally. I'd use it as a middle name if it was important to me. I'd always ask before naming a child after a living close relative, nothing to do with being trans. The sibling may have rejected the name but that doesn't delete the history of them being called it growing up.

Clymene · 14/08/2022 11:57

I've not seen that deletion message either. I believe MN employ different mods at the weekend.

SammyScrounge · 14/08/2022 11:58

junebirthdaygirl · 13/08/2022 20:27

I genuinely don't know why the pregnant sister wants to cause such drama. Just pick another name if it is upsetting their sibling. No need to complicate things even further.

It's the poor wee transman who is causing the drama. The family have stopped centring him and bending over backwards not to upset him and suddenly his wishes are being ignored and not all the footstamping and sulking is going to make them do his bidding.
It may be for the best if he falls out permanently with his sister. I have often wondered how children are affected who have a trans relative spouting their crazy ideology at them. I couldn't allow that. And that relative would have no say in how my baby was named.

DarkDayforMN · 14/08/2022 12:01

That deletion message is borderline illiterate and seems to have been written by a TRA.

I’ve heard that the MN mods at night/weekends are volunteers. Is that true? In that case the kind of problems faced by Reddit and Wikipedia are likely to occur.

It doesn’t seem like these mods are well screened, regardless. Do they have access to IP information?

FlibbertyGiblets · 14/08/2022 12:08

DarkDayforMN · 14/08/2022 12:01

That deletion message is borderline illiterate and seems to have been written by a TRA.

I’ve heard that the MN mods at night/weekends are volunteers. Is that true? In that case the kind of problems faced by Reddit and Wikipedia are likely to occur.

It doesn’t seem like these mods are well screened, regardless. Do they have access to IP information?

The Night Watch team are not mods, they have no powers other than to hide a post or a thread overnight for HQ to deal with. These are often unwanted images, or trolling posts. Sorry to disappoint this time!

I agree that deletion message is ummm...unusual and worded oddly.