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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

938 replies

aseriesofstillimages · 07/08/2022 12:36

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:28

And basically by your rules we are all bisexual, but some of us just need persuading or haven't found the right person to convert us.

This.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/08/2022 08:31

ArcheryAnnie · 09/08/2022 06:25

But I really struggle with why GC people would want to tell a woman - a lesbian - who is in a relationship with a trans woman that they are wrong to consider themselves a lesbian.

Because words mean things. And because there is a long, long violent, misogynistic, homophobic history of men saying that lesbians really need dick in their lives - including corrective rape, or porn where two "lesbians" having sex is just a warm-up to a man joining them for the "real thing", or pressure from family to get married to a man, or asking a lesbian couple "which one of you is the man then?", ad infinitum. For a woman in a relationship with a male, however they identify, to describe both themselves and the male as lesbians is an active danger to real lesbians.

Yes, this is what I was more clumsily trying to say

there’s a long history of pressure on lesbians to sleep with men. Transwomen being ‘lesbians’ is just that but 2.0

but you won’t address that will you @aseriesofstillimages ? You haven’t addressed any of the points raised in this thread

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/08/2022 08:33

aseriesofstillimages · 09/08/2022 01:11

Or I guess I do understand deep down why it is - GC people don’t consider trans women to be women, so no one else is allowed to.

Show quote history

Let’s get down to it then

words are used for communication. They must mean something

what’s your definition of ‘woman’?

tell me why Barbie Kardashian and you and me are all women

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:35

I'm not convinced OP grasps that Bernard. To her, we're just mean and won't share our words. She's subscribed to a belief based on magical thinking and we should too.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 09/08/2022 08:39

She’s adopted a fundamentally irrational position and is now berating others for not sharing it. It’s both bizarrely self centred and infuriating Eresh

i dunno why it still gets to me, but it does!

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 08:39

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:28

And basically by your rules we are all bisexual, but some of us just need persuading or haven't found the right person to convert us.

This.

Yes. This is how I read OPs posts. Not sure they understand quite how their post can be interpreted.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 08:44

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

Because threads like this cross over into proselytizing through shame.

AlisonDonut · 09/08/2022 09:08

aseriesofstillimages · 09/08/2022 01:11

Or I guess I do understand deep down why it is - GC people don’t consider trans women to be women, so no one else is allowed to.

Show quote history

It is quite the conundrum isn't it.

How women tell men who say they are women apart from actual women.

We've gone back to the 1970's days of middle aged male comics who used to tell their audiences 'nobody knows I'm a lesbian'. And people like you believe them, like they are the second coming.

Beowulfa · 09/08/2022 09:26

I've been a vegetarian most of my life. The "I'm a vegetarian but eat chicken" types have always been seriously annoying. We do now have a word that didn't exist when I first became veggie; "flexitarian" helpfully describes those who eat mostly plant-based, but consume meat on occasion. That leaves "vegetarian" for those of us who don't eat meat or fish.

Why is it so hard to come up with a word for those lesbians who date transwomen? It's a new concept, so requires a new word.

titchy · 09/08/2022 09:39

Look OP, is anyone actually telling her what she is or isn't? You say 'GC people are telling her...' - but are they? To her face? Somehow I think not.

But she is having sex with someone who has a penis. She is the very definition of bisexual. And actually - what's wrong with that? Is there something considered fundamentally wrong with bisexuality amongst your friends?

The vegan who declares themselves such over a bacon sandwich - they're not vegan. They may consider themselves vegan, have mainly vegan friends, adopt an otherwise vegan lifestyle. But they're no vegan by definition. And so what. Again being non vegan is not bad.

titchy · 09/08/2022 09:42

And surely someone's sexuality is not defined by a second person's identity?

SuperCamp · 09/08/2022 09:54

Or I guess I do understand deep down why it is - GC people don’t consider trans women to be women, so no one else is allowed to.

’consider’ what you like, but don’t expect me or the gvt or society at large to consider the same at the point where it affects my sex based rights. Sex specific services and spaces, sport etc.

Findwen · 09/08/2022 11:36

I don't believe in magic.

One day a magician pulled a rabbit out of a hat that I was 100% sure that wasn't there earlier... but he did it anyway.

I was comprehensively fooled by him. I still don't believe in magic though. Maybe some will be convinced by him that magic is true, doesn't mean I have to.

Thelnebriati · 09/08/2022 11:49

The rights of women, gay men and lesbians have to be protected in law because misogyny, sexism and homophobia are real threats that have an actual impact on our lives.
To protect rights there must be a legal definition.

IMO, its irresponsible to continually post about identity in this context. It creates a culture where women and gay people feel pressured to conform.

If you want a new identity, create one. No one is stopping you, no one will bat an eyelid.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 09/08/2022 12:04

This is just the same tired old twisting word arguments. I don’t even want to engage!

Isn’t there another huge big issue. Like climate change?

CompleteGinasaur · 09/08/2022 12:37

This reply has been deleted

This post has been deleted as it breaks our Talk guidelines.

puffyisgood · 09/08/2022 19:54

Labels are just, y'know, labels. If people can disagree over the meaning of 'woman' then it obviously follows from this that they can disagree over the meaning of 'lesbian'.

FWIW I'm with, I assume, the overwhelming majority on here who'd guess that being attracted to 'women and men' [i.e. regular bisexual] must be vastly more common than being attracted to 'women and transwomen' [i.e. bisexual when it comes to male bodied people who 'identify as women' and possibly undergo some physical feminisation through medication and/or surgery] - the latter concept flies in the face of the standard concept of naked attraction.

BootsAndRoots · 09/08/2022 20:46

I see it all kicked off with my previous post, with a lot of deliberate misinterpretations.

When I talk about trans women, I do not (as I have already explained) consider a man who simple self identifies as a woman as trans. Many are deliberately interpretating that as my definition. There are some heterosexual men who find them attractive, they do not (like lesbians) find self the male appearance attractive. These men would be attracted to their feminine qualities.

When I talk about female bodybuilders, I'm referring to the extreme examples, such as those who have likely taken steroids and hormones (to unnaturally bulk up) and have developed quite masculine features (such as jawlines, Schwarzenegger muscles etc), they usually get breast implants to try to retain some feminine appearances. It would be the more masculine aspects of their bodies that some men find attractive.

I am not talking about athletic builds (like we've just seen at the commonwealth games), but I reckon people know that and deliberately seek to be offended. Did I call them men? No. Did I call men who self identify as women, women? No.

mrshoho · 09/08/2022 20:52

Thanks for clearing up our silly confusions. Now it makes perfect sense... not!

DarkDayforMN · 09/08/2022 22:56

BootsAndRoots · 09/08/2022 20:46

I see it all kicked off with my previous post, with a lot of deliberate misinterpretations.

When I talk about trans women, I do not (as I have already explained) consider a man who simple self identifies as a woman as trans. Many are deliberately interpretating that as my definition. There are some heterosexual men who find them attractive, they do not (like lesbians) find self the male appearance attractive. These men would be attracted to their feminine qualities.

When I talk about female bodybuilders, I'm referring to the extreme examples, such as those who have likely taken steroids and hormones (to unnaturally bulk up) and have developed quite masculine features (such as jawlines, Schwarzenegger muscles etc), they usually get breast implants to try to retain some feminine appearances. It would be the more masculine aspects of their bodies that some men find attractive.

I am not talking about athletic builds (like we've just seen at the commonwealth games), but I reckon people know that and deliberately seek to be offended. Did I call them men? No. Did I call men who self identify as women, women? No.

STOP DIGGING.

bellinisurge · 09/08/2022 23:01

" I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women"

What is this contemptible homophobic misogynistic nonsense?

PickAChew · 09/08/2022 23:24

BootsAndRoots · 09/08/2022 20:46

I see it all kicked off with my previous post, with a lot of deliberate misinterpretations.

When I talk about trans women, I do not (as I have already explained) consider a man who simple self identifies as a woman as trans. Many are deliberately interpretating that as my definition. There are some heterosexual men who find them attractive, they do not (like lesbians) find self the male appearance attractive. These men would be attracted to their feminine qualities.

When I talk about female bodybuilders, I'm referring to the extreme examples, such as those who have likely taken steroids and hormones (to unnaturally bulk up) and have developed quite masculine features (such as jawlines, Schwarzenegger muscles etc), they usually get breast implants to try to retain some feminine appearances. It would be the more masculine aspects of their bodies that some men find attractive.

I am not talking about athletic builds (like we've just seen at the commonwealth games), but I reckon people know that and deliberately seek to be offended. Did I call them men? No. Did I call men who self identify as women, women? No.

I don't find extremely enhanced musculature attractive in anyone, of either sex. It involves habits that are somewhat obsessive and not entirely physically healthy and I find those things to be a big turn off.

Metabigot · 09/08/2022 23:48

Nellodee · 07/08/2022 17:28

She will have ceased to be a lesbian, but don't worry, she can still identify as one.

😂

MissingLesbianSpaces · 10/08/2022 02:37

I guess OP thinks us lesbians "just need the right dick". The first time a white dude (always a white dude who claims "I'm a lesbian too" -- some things don't change) said this to me was in the early 80s. Back then I could rightly tell him to fuck all the way off and nobody would think I was wrong, even the less hateful homophobes. But in 2022 I am a bigoted bitch who wont allow herself to be correctively raped. I mean, that says it all

334bu · 10/08/2022 09:13

All those supposedly progressive people who chant transwoman can be lesbians, this is what they really mean......
"I guess OP thinks us lesbians "just need the right dick". The first time a white dude (always a white dude who claims "I'm a lesbian too" -- some things don't change) said this to me was in the early 80s. Back then I could rightly tell him to fuck all the way off and nobody would think I was wrong, even the less hateful homophobes. But in 2022 I am a bigoted bitch who wont allow herself to be correctively raped. I mean, that says it all"

Well said MissingLesbianSpaces.