Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

@aseriesofstillimages wanting to redefine something to suit your situation is understandable as a desire, but you can't insist that your view of reality be changed for every other person in the world and change the meaning of words.

Let's work it through using a different example.

I am fat, it's a fact, I'm obese, wear size 22 clothing.

In my head I am slim, photos always take me by surprise because my mental image of myself does not look like what the cameras see.

I very much dislike the fact that I am categorised as plus size and that I do not fit into the healthy BMI range. I find it uncomfortable when my Dr mentions weight as I do not see myself as obese and don't think that the physical reality of my weight should be mentioned.

I will now declare myself and everyone else who is obese but doesn't self identify as obese to be healthy and slim.

Plus size will be redefined to start at size 24 and my weight and height is Within the 'healthy' BMI range. Everyone should accept this and redefine themselves based on my self image

In my large university town lesbian social group (circa 2015) the only woman who openly dated a prominent transwoman was our open bisexual.

If a lesbian dated a transwoman then she'd be immediately categorized and downgraded as a bisexual., gods even the bisexual had a hard time! We were grossed out by the idea that she slept with men, talked about male partners....

As a wise lesbian told me when I first came out: "forget about bisexuals they're not worth the pain. "

this is the reality about lesbian social life, women may not be ejecting the transwomen from their social group, but they are quietly leaving and not dating them for sure. It's why young lesbians are the focal point....

I notice you're not replying to me because I'm telling everyone here the reality of my lived lesbian experience.

I don't know how lesbians put up with this shit, I really don't.

Solidarity to my lesbian sisters.

It clearly is a matter of opinion though, at least as to where trans people fit in, given how many people disagree on this topic.

It not opinion it is fact, lesbians are same sex attracted, that definition is laid down in Statute and provides legal protections to lesbians - arbitrarily expanding that definition or subverting it undermines legal protections that lesbians have on the basis of their sexuality.

Trans people can fit in by finding another definition that describes them, another word, another 'concept' instead of trying to gate crash into one that belongs to others and is not appropriate to them.

I too wonder how lesbians stomach all this crap that is thrown at them, it's reprehensible.

The only other group of people who have tried to convince me homosexuality had anything to do with opinions were staunchly Catholic.

I see we are back to "choosing to be gay".

There are two sets of genitals.
And three combinations of said genitals.
Call it minimising. Call it whatever you like.

Facts don't pander to opinions.

I too wonder how lesbians stomach all this crap that is thrown at them, it's reprehensible.

Yup, homophobia and misogyny all in one. So much for respecting who you are.

Changing peoples views?

I've come across this on Twitter so many times. Transwomen insisting that transwomen = women therefore lesbians should accept cock.

Which comes across extremely rapey.

people have given you some really well reasoned responses (not me, I just got cross with you)

you have not engaged with any of them

just saying 'I disagree, you're offensive' is hardly covering yourself with glory is it?

come on, you're really sure you're right. It should be a piece of piss to come up with a really convincing argument

Indeed. Same.

I think that it was you who said before that ‘lesbian’ is defined in legislation, which is not true, as far as I’m aware. I assume you’re referring to the definition of sexual orientation in the Equality Act as “a person's sexual orientation towards—

(a) persons of the same sex,

(b) persons of the opposite sex, or

(c) persons of either sex”

That definition is clearly no basis for saying that a lesbian can’t be attracted to, or have a relationship with, a trans woman. First because a trans woman with a GRC would be legally a woman for this purpose, so a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs, would be exclusively same sex attracted.

Second, because the main point of the provisions in the Equality Act about sexual orientation is to stop people being discriminated against because they are gay or bisexual or are perceived to be gay or bisexual (although it does equally protect straight people from discrimination) - it is not seeking to create definitive categories of sexuality.

It’s hard to pick out the well reasoned responses from among the much larger number of entirely un-reasoned ones. If I didn’t have a day job and other things to be doing (and if I had a computer rather than a phone to type my messages on) I probably would take the time to go through and explain why I don’t agree with most of the arguments people have made. But on past experience, when I have tried to do that, people just shouted abuse and didn’t engage with what I’d said, so it feels like a bit of a pointless endeavour.

Sorry, it wasn’t personal, I haven’t been replying to most people. Your lesbian social group sounds pretty unpleasant, from the way you’ve described how they regard and treat bisexuals. I’m glad that has not generally been my experience.

OP do you think it would be a contentious statement to say hetrosexual people are "exclusively opposite sex attracted?" Or do you think you can be straight whilst having sex with someone who is the same sex as you?

No one really cares whether you agree or not. There are plenty of lesbians saying no.
Why is it difficult for you to understand why they are saying no.
Do you think they should change their minds and agree with you?

Does it matter ?

THANK YOU!

I don’t need to redefine anything to suit my situation, given I’m bisexual, and anyway my partner is a cis gender woman, but I assume you mean ‘you’ more broadly in reference to lesbians who date trans women.

your example is very similar to ones I’ve seen other people giving in relation to a range of characteristics, such as age. I’ve been trying to work out why I think sex/gender is different. I think it stems from the fact that it is possible for trans men and women to ‘pass’ to a greater or lesser extent. Gender critical people tend to define sex as being essentially about whether you are the type of human that produces small or large gametes. But that’s not what we see when we look at a person and perceive them to be a particular sex/gender - we perceive things like their body and face shape, the pitch of their voice, their mannerisms. And while these things are significantly correlated with whether one is the type of person who produces large or small gametes, they are clearly not 100% aligned with that - and particularly not when you bring in the possibility of surgery and hormone treatment.

I realise the response will be - but many trans people don’t pass. And while I don’t believe that the acceptance of a person in their acquired gender should depend on their ability to pass (which is to a large extent a matter of luck), the fact that I think some trans people do pass does affect my views on this whole issue.

I don’t think it’s possible for a person who weighs 20 stone to give the impression to anyone in person that they weight 10 stone. It is possible for a person who is of the category of people who usually produce large gametes to appear to another person to be a man.

Hmmm women who are exclusively attracted to other women.
There used to be a word for that. What was it? Lembas? Librarian? Lumos? Lesothosaurus?

the views I’ve expressed in relation to lesbians apply equally to gay men and straight people. If a straight man falls for a trans woman who he perceives as female, and he continues to identify as straight, I wouldn’t think he was incorrect.

Going even further, there are significant numbers of men who consider themselves straight even though they sometimes have sex with other men. People have a wide variety of ways of understanding sexuality - some people think it’s all about who you want to bump genitals with, others think it’s about who you want to have romantic and sexual relationships with.

I saw a documentary about trans men who were body builders, and one of them had for many years lived as a lesbian and had a lesbian partner. When the trans man started to transition, his partner explained how challenging she found it, having always been a lesbian (and that having been an important part of her identity), that she was now going to be in a heterosexual relationship.

I think everyone, regardless of their own sex, gender or sexuality, should accept that when a lesbian continues to consider herself a lesbian after having been attracted to or had a relationship with a trans woman, they should accept that that is her validly held belief about her own sexuality, and she knows better than them.

I suppose my fundamental point is that, while clearly people disagree as to whether trans women are women, and trans men are men, when it comes to a person’s understanding of their own sexuality, it should be accepted that it is their views on sex/gender - rather than other people’s - that are determinative.

So if a gay man considers trans men to be men, and he has a relationship with a trans man, and still considers himself to be gay, he’s correct. If a gay man doesn’t consider trans men to be men, yet unexpectedly finds himself attracted to a trans man and as a result comes to the conclusion he is in fact bisexual - he is also right.

This is a very interesting article on the invention of heterosexuality
www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexuality

First because a trans woman with a GRC would be legally a woman for this purpose, so a woman whose ‘sexual orientation’ was ‘towards’ both non-trans women, and trans women with GRCs, would be exclusively same sex attracted.

No, because (1) it is a Gender Recognition Certificate not a sex recognition certificate and (2) as clarified by the Attorney General it is a legal fiction biological sex has not changed, therefore as far as sexual orientation goes it is based on biological sex which is unchangeable.

The Equality Act does create definitive categories of sexual orientation based on biological sex and protects them.

@aseriesofstillimages
No one is questioning your friend's sexuality or yours for that matter. Shag whoever you like.
You don't get to dictate to other lesbians that males are part of their sexual world.

Have you ever considered that it might be you and your friend finding accepting change difficult? Your situations have changed but you want to keep your swanky mental image of yourselves. You don't seem to mind killing the very thing that makes that mental image swanky in order to hold onto it.
If your mental positive feedback loop deteriorates when confronted with the truth, it isn't the truth which needs to change. You need to grow a healthier relationship between change and your mental image of yourself.

The GRA actually provides that:

“Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).”

so it is clear that where the Equality Act refers to ‘sex’, if a trans woman has a GRC, their sex is female, and if a trans man has a GRC, their sex is male.

Rishi Sunak has talked recently about changing this by amending the Equality Act, but as we stand currently, this is the law.