80 year old woman banned from pool for standing up for little girls

[Misstache]

This poor woman dedicated her life to defending women and girls. She heard a male voice while in the shower at her local pool, looked out and saw a TW changing near 4 or 5 little girls while staring at them. She stepped in, asked if the TW had a penis, and got banned and the pool staff threatened to call police on her. They lied and said she said all kinds of profane things. This is so disgusting. I feel so bad for her.

reduxx.info/senior-woman-banned-from-local-pool-after-expressing-concern-over-male-in-womens-washroom/

Oh the police needed calling.

Just not on an elderly woman

I haven't read the Wi Spa incident, but I shall do. I would not, however, conflate it with this incident, at least not as its reported in the OP's linked article.

MarthaOnTheRocks

ok. Can you please post an example from the site of an article that has false information?

So we can assess for ourselves why you think this about Reduxx.

Has there been any court cases where people have taken them to court, or corrections? or just any article that was false information.

So the facts of the case are:
Non-naked male (identifies as 'woman' since Dec 2021), reportedly watching girls, was asked 'Do you have a penis' in Washington State, USA.

The argument on the board seems to be about whether it is legally and/or morally OK to ask this question.

Legally, no - in some place in USA, incl. in Los Angeles (see Wi Spa) it is fully legal for male persons to be in full state of undress in any space reserved for women, as long as said male person identifies as a woman. They may be in state of partial arousal and looking wherever they please, including at naked female minors.

Morally - is this an acceptable situation/was the 83-yr old in question correct to protest (possibly not in those exact words)? What form of words would be acceptable?

Separate question - seeing as this is a legally-mandated consequence of gender identity trumping sex in service provision, do we think we want similar laws in UK, especially as there are some influential organisations in this country pushing for it? Do we want any TW who identifies as a woman in any space reserved for women, regardless of their sartorial state or choices.

@Didimum, would be delighted to hear your thoughts on the moral questions raised by this case, if you have time.

Maybe they did need calling; it needs investigating properly – and that's the importance of properly reporting incidents.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Julie Jaman's "Do you have a penis?" was the right question to ask in that situation.

The male was standing there in a women's swimsuit (everything would have been clearly silhouetted) so she had probably worked out already why this male felt entitled to be in the women's changing room. And she probably knew that their presence would in some

I’m not sure I understand the suggestion that trans women transition in order to get access to women’s changing rooms and therefore undressed children… surely there are just as many children changing in the male changing rooms with their dads/other male family members.

I think non-consenting females finding themselves naked in front of a surprise man is worse than a surprise man getting naked in front of non-consenting females. Regardless, men shouldn't foist themselves into women's spaces, and the ones who do are suspect. This isn't about mean women not sharing; this is about men taking over everything (again).

👏👏👏

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Julie Jaman's "Do you have a penis?" was the right question to ask in that situation.

The male was standing there in a women's swimsuit (everything would have been clearly silhouetted) so she had probably worked out already why this male felt entitled to be in the women's changing room. And she probably knew that their presence would in some way be justified by them. So emphasising that this person has all the physical attributes of a man makes it quite clear that there is no justification for their presence. Especially not when this male person then chooses to watch little girls getting undressed.

It's equivalent to reminders that pronouns are Rohypnol.

bright I can only speak from my own experience but DH when he took our girls swimming chose either a family cubical or a cubical in the male communal area. There is no way he would have undressed the girls in full view of other males. And by the time they were 7 they used a cubical on their own or went in to the female area without DH.

@LK1972
Morally - is this an acceptable situation/was the 83-yr old in question correct to protest (possibly not in those exact words)? What form of words would be acceptable?

If you are a bystander, the advice in safeguarding, and in any other situation where harm or ill-will etc is taking place, is not intervene and to report to the appropriate place/people/authority, as quickly as you can. Yes, I agree with that protocol. It exists for the safety of the bystander and to reduce escalation of a situation.

I didn't say that they 'should' I said that they 'can'. And that 'can' was in reference to the TW.

Plenty of reported cases of male sexual predators doing this to gain access to women prisons and go on to assault female inmates. So absolutely not a stretch, surely?

And this doesn't in any way compare to an adult using facilities with their kids.

That is, in this case, it was legally correct to call the police and to report this 80-yr old woman for 'transphobia'.

This is what will increasingly happen in US, until women stop complaining about 'unexpected packages' in areas reserved for potentially naked or otherwise vulnerable women (the old-fashioned kind).

Stonewall et al are pushing for the same in UK (currently legally ambiguous).

Do we, women, want this?

If yes, why? (without talking about male needs)

Not an individual grievance - a huge safeguarding fail from an 'established authority' - which as it happens did manage to pull themselves together and fire this member of staff eventually. But only after their twitter manager declared 'nothing to see hear bigot'.

The male had a full right to stand wherever he wanted and to look anywhere he liked, just like any 'other' woman.

There was no reason to report this for safeguarding, the law cannot take upon itself to direct human gaze.

Again, if she disagreed with the TW's presence in the area, that's to take up with the pool or whatever local council or authority there might be in the area which reviews policy. If she perceived wrongdoing/safety issue, then she should have reported it to the necessary authority. That is to protect her as well as any others.

Same with my dad when I was little and we went swimming. He wouldn't have dreamed of taking me in the men's changing room.
Also think it's worthwhile to note that little girls are much more likely to be sexually abused than little boys. Even most paedophiles aren't indiscriminately targeting "children".

So what?

If anyone is in a what is supposed to be a single sex facility where they should be able to expect to only be with people of their own sex above the 8, contortions to not expose themselves would be unnecessary.

And if a male was being expected to do this as well, well that is just a sign that they should not be in that space at all.

If a female is expected to do it to hide from male gaze, in a supposedly single sex space, then that is akin to victim blaming. It is like saying, well you were in there, if you didn’t cover up properly that is your own fault.

From this case and the Wi Spa incident we've seen that 'reporting the incident to someone in authority' is useless because men have been given the Orwellian right to pretend their way into women's spaces and any woman who does complain is trolled all over the internet as a right-wing bigot who deserves to be ostracised, sacked and prosecuted. The ideology has rendered women even more powerless. How do you complain about sexual predators when flashing and voyeurism is effectively legal?

Anyone should report a safety concern whether the suspected individual has a 'right' to a space or not. The law may not be able to direct human gaze, but it can appropriately investigate claims that someone may be a harm or potential harm to others.

@Didimum If you allow males in, you cannot start mandating where they look, or whether they are fully naked, or the state of their arousal.

That male could have full erection, be naked, stare at the girls from respectful distance and be fully within the law, in that particular place.

Is this what should happen here too?

@Didimum 'Again, if she disagreed with the TW's presence in the area, that's to take up with the pool or whatever local council or authority there might be in the area which reviews policy. If she perceived wrongdoing/safety issue, then she should have reported it to the necessary authority. That is to protect her as well as any others.'

It's the law of the state, as clearly stated in the article.

There is nothing to report, no 'wrongdoing/safety issue'.

If you accept that males should be in women's spaces.

Do you accept that?

Actually you can mandate for that. Intrusive staring of a sexual nature that causes harassment, alarm or distress is classed as a Public Order Offence in the UK. I don't know if US law covers that. Perhaps it should, and if it doesn't, then that's a failing of that state's lawmakers.