I am embracing virtue signalling pronouns in emails

[MsFogi]

I have realised I have made too many assumptions about gender over the years. I had always assumed that Paul (name changed of course) in my company was a man simply on the basis of his appearance (well over 6 foot, well built, big beard, low voice that only someone with an Adam's apple and whose balls have dropped could have). Imagine my relief to find that I have not been misgendering him for over a decade because he has helpfully added his pronouns to his email auto signature - they are he/him/his. There is no company diktat to add pronouns on emails so clearly this is important to Paul or maybe he has been misgendered recently.

So, I thought I would ensure that Paul was not offended on a Teams meeting this afternoon and kicked off the meeting by asking everyone to note that Paul's pronouns are he/him/his and that given that he has stated these that everyone please be sensitive to ensuring that they use them. No one said anything so I think they all took it on board, no one misgendered Paul and I like to think that his move to include his pronouns at work has been embraced in my meeting. Maybe as a result others that attended the meeting will add theirs to their auto signatures too.

[GoodJanetBadJanet]

Oh do bore off, there's nothing fascist or remotely bigoted in this board,
If you say so
please feel free to report whenever you see it.
Thanks, will do

[LK1972]

@antifascist 'reported', oh no, what am I to do?

How about you answer some questions for a change?

Why are you here, castigating and slurring women day after day?

What do you get out if it?

'Antifascist'- lol, wtf do you know about history, do you know what totalitarianism is? Did you grow up with you phone tapped by KGB, 'cos we was an actual fucking freedom fighter. Fuck off, you know absolutely NOTHING about me, and I don't owe you any pity.

[LK1972]

'Cos my father was, not 'we'

[LK1972]

@GoodJanetBadJanet

Oh do bore off, there's nothing fascist or remotely bigoted in this board,
If you say so
please feel free to report whenever you see it.
Thanks, will do

Wonderful, we agree

Be careful, you're quite close to being fash-adjacent there, surely that's what happens when you agree with bigots, on anything?

Luckily, your friend on this thread is perfectly qualified to explain it all to us shortly, no doubt, what with that wonderful username.

[VestofAbsurdity]

@GoodJanetBadJanet

Oh do bore off, there's nothing fascist or remotely bigoted in this board,
If you say so
please feel free to report whenever you see it.
Thanks, will do

and those who make personal attacks which are against the guidelines as you are such a fair citizen with no bias I'm sure.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It looks like the conversation on this thread has long moved on and left me behind

Not really, @aseriesofstillimages because neither you nor @Didimum have managed to offer a coherent case for why people should prioritise gender identity ideology over sex, or what gender identity means when unmoored from sex and knowing what sex people are and all the stereotype baggage that comes with that.

Why what most women and girls want, ie privacy and dignity from the opposite sex, should be disregarded in favour of what this group of males want.

Since I've never seen that answered in a way that boils down to more than "let them have what they want, it's kind and progressive" that's not surprising.

[Didimum]

They are going down, and your bullshit with it. Cry more.

This is thing though. It’s not going down. Not even close. You have the impression it is because you are stuck in an echo chamber of unjustified panic and hatred. We know where women are, overwhelmingly, most at risk - and that’s in their own homes with perpetrators already known to them. The fact is women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male-identifying partner or family member. Women’s spaces have become the focus of perceived risk and a false haven to keep perpetrators out at the perimeter, when that’s not where the perpetrators lie. And transwomen have become the scapegoat of unfounded ‘stranger danger’ - a tiny minority disproportionately affected by assault and violence themselves.

I don’t need to be here, because the world is already successfully eradicating the consequence of anti-trans sentiment. Enjoy your echo chamber, because that’s all you have. I’m sorry that you’re fighting a losing battle.

@aseriesofstillimages Thank you for your words.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Oh hi Didimum, I see you haven't actually managed to answer those questions.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I don’t need to be here, because the world is already successfully eradicating the consequence of anti-trans sentiment. Enjoy your echo chamber, because that’s all you have. I’m sorry that you’re fighting a losing battle.

This seems to be a bit of a 2017 statement, at least in this country. Pre Forstater, pre JKR waking up many people, pre a coordinated pushback from women, pre getting Stonewall out of many large institutions and getting a seat at the table to ensure that women's voices are heard on this.

What is it, we have, a few of us in an echo chamber or transphobic control of the U.K. media, making the country "unsafe"? A country where everyone agrees bar a few women on Mumsnet that trans people should always get what they want or one which is hostile to them? Trans activists need to make their minds up.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

It's good to see your true colours though, with this type of triumphalist statement which shows that you haven't listened, despite claiming to have done, to what the concerns are here.

[wellhelloitsme]

@Didimum

I wondered if you could take a look at my previous question and let me know your thoughts? Pasting it here for ease:

I am hugely conflicted on the subject of sports and prisons.

Using these as an example though @Didimum, why do you find them a big internal conflict if you believe that we shouldn't cause pain to those who don't deserve it?

Girls and women in strength, power and speed based sports cannot compete fairly (or safely in the case of contact sports) against natal men. Why is the pain of women losing scholarships, losing games, being harmed when playing etc less important than the pain of trans women who want to compete against them?

Girls and women in prison are already vulnerable to abuse and likely to underreport assaults. They are statistically more likely to have been victims of abuse in their pre-prison life. Why is the pain of multiple women being unsettled, disturbed, triggered or frightened by the presence of someone with a penis less important than the emotional pain of someone with a penis who would like to be in the female prison population?

Girls and women should not be expected to hold all the compassion for others, especially not at the expense of their own health and wellbeing.

Can you see how it is difficult to understand you asking people to be compassionate despite saying you're conflicted about sports and prisons? Where is the compassion for all the girls and women affected?

[VestofAbsurdity]

@Didimum

They are going down, and your bullshit with it. Cry more.

This is thing though. It’s not going down. Not even close. You have the impression it is because you are stuck in an echo chamber of unjustified panic and hatred. We know where women are, overwhelmingly, most at risk - and that’s in their own homes with perpetrators already known to them. The fact is women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male-identifying partner or family member. Women’s spaces have become the focus of perceived risk and a false haven to keep perpetrators out at the perimeter, when that’s not where the perpetrators lie. And transwomen have become the scapegoat of unfounded ‘stranger danger’ - a tiny minority disproportionately affected by assault and violence themselves.

I don’t need to be here, because the world is already successfully eradicating the consequence of anti-trans sentiment. Enjoy your echo chamber, because that’s all you have. I’m sorry that you’re fighting a losing battle.

@aseriesofstillimages Thank you for your words.

Unjustified panic and hatred - no panicking or hatred, that is on the TRA side, they know no debate is over and the more the public see and hear the more they disagree with the Gender Ideology agenda and that has been proven by recent YouGov surveys.

Mixed sex spaces are the the worst for sexual assaults and voyeurism, that has been proven time and time again.

It's not just safety, it's privacy and dignity clearly you don't think women deserve that meagre consideration, how very misogynistic of you. You also give zero consideration to women who cannot share spaces with men for whatever reason, women from certain faiths for example, where do they go? How very discriminatory and exclusionary of you.

Male-identifying - you've really swallowed the entire ideology haven't you.

Transwomen are the safest demographic.

97% of people surveyed recently want single sex spaces to be single sex, hardly a niche view.

It's not anti-trans sentiment, it is the preservation of women's rights to safety, privacy, dignity and language.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Ah, our old friend the echo chamber. I don't think gender critical women are the ones in the echo chamber. There are a good many straws in the wind showing that as more people see what gender ideology means in practice they are saying no.

• Maya Forstater's win at the Employment Tribunal
• Various sporting bodies waking up and starting to make sure their rules protect women's sport
• Cass report, and revised guidelines on puberty blockers in Sweden and Finland
• Assorted government bodies in the UK withdrawing from Stonewall's Diversity Champions scheme
• Nolan Report podcast about Stonewall on the BBC

Those are just off the top of my head. There are doubtless more. The response on Twitter to Stonewall's ludicrous tweet the other day about a 2yo with a trans identity was hearteningly forthright.

[LK1972]

Lol, @Didimum

Are you actually, really, telling me that my fervently expressed hope that Stonewall is going down is so so very wrong?

It really touched the nerve, and made you announce your flounce in advance, just so we know exactly what we did, and how disappointed you're with us.

You are defending Stonewall, after this week? AND shouting about bigotry?

You seemed better than that.

[PearlClench]

Lots of arguing in this echo chamber. Which is good! I like to hear other views and had hoped aseriesofstillimages that you would offer more on your ideas about gender identity and what it means to live as the opposite sex beyond clothing and hair choices.

women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male

I'd like to read the evidence on this, please, can you point me to it Didimum?

It's a shame that antifascist has disrupted what I'd hoped was a useful discussion. Again.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male

I'd like to read the evidence on this, please, can you point me to it Didimum?

Women are statistically safer with any strange male than the male in their own home, but strangely we still have single sex changing rooms and toilets.

[HipTightOnions]

women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male

Well, yes and no.

A woman picked at random from the population may be less safe with her own partner.

I personally am safer with my own particular non-violent partner.

And even for those poor women who are unsafe at home, allowing men into women's spaces only increases their risk.

[mrshoho]

So thankful we have the right to debate this ideology in the UK. The delusional comments of an echo chamber are desperate and laughable. Read the room and you will see public opinion is of the common sense variety based on truth and science. SW have exposed the nonsense they peddle and most sane people don't agree with them.

[LK1972]

Ooh, apologies. It was not the bigotry Didi accused this board of, so sorry.

It was, rather refreshingly, of moral panic and being in echo chamber (we haven't had this one in here for a bit, thanks)

And misunderstanding of statistics.

I wonder if you really are a womb-carrier, Didi? Or are you a penis-haver?

As all your concerns seem to be about males, and your argument and grasp of the situation is very outdated.

You have not been paying attention, have you?

[TheKeatingFive]

Oh hi Didimum, I see you haven't actually managed to answer those questions.

Yes I was thinking I didn't see any responses to the many questions put to Didimum

[Iliveonahill]

This weekend, at various social events, so many of my friends/colleagues unprompted mention their support for no penis in women’s sport. I don’t bring the subject up anymore as I’ve had too many knock backs. But this weekend it changed.

It is sport at the moment, next will be personal care, men and women do not want their disabled girls/mothers intimately cared for by penis holders.

At last. I think the 0.1% and the be kind to men brigade are Losing it. Just need Stonewall to lose a few more legal cases, issue a couple more tweets and hopefully they be closed down for fraud, etc etc.

[PearlClench]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

women are statistically safer with a transwoman who is a stranger in a changing room or a bathroom than they are in their own home with a male

I'd like to read the evidence on this, please, can you point me to it Didimum?

Women are statistically safer with any strange male than the male in their own home, but strangely we still have single sex changing rooms and toilets.

Has there been any research other than the Swedish study on the rates of violence within male population disaggregated by gender identity?

I know the prison stats on sexual offenders are different between males with different gender identities but I would hope this doesnt reflect the population outside of prison.

[RichardBarrister]

And transwomen have become the scapegoat of unfounded ‘stranger danger’ - a tiny minority disproportionately affected by assault and violence themselves

Didimum conveniently skips over the fact that while approx 80% of violent attacks on women are by someone they know, that leaves 20% of attacks being carried out strangers, in a public place.

I’d say womens worries of stranger danger are absolutely founded. Any measures that prevent the club bouncer from removing the creepy guy hanging out in the womens toilets or the security guard from checking out why the old man has followed a 10 yr old into the ladies increase that danger. There is no appearance requirement relating to a particular gender identity. If a man claims a female gender identity we may have no way of verifying that so if we let one male born person in we must let them all in.

I would be interested to see Didimums evidence that tw are at risk if violence - the data I’ve seen does not back that up.

[BernardBlacksWineIcelolly]

crikey, it all kicked off here overnight

but no concrete answers, other than something something, you should be OK with an increased risk of voyeurism because some men would like to come in women's changing rooms something

Police Officer filmed women getting undressed in Primark - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62270660

this is what some men do when they get access to women in a state of undress @Didimum , @aseriesofstillimages

Men as a class victimise and prey on women as a class

what's your suggestion for dealing with it?

[PearlClench]

As a general point I don't think framing these issues in terms of winning and losing is helpful or realistic.

What we need are practical, workable compromises that protect and give consideration to everyone without increasing risk to women and children