Single Sex Toilet issue creeping into everyday life?

[BoredofthisCrap7]

Just back from holiday in Cornwall.

Using the female toilets (public toilets) was very interesting.

Myself and two teenage daughters faced with fully grown man in the female toilets. These were public toilets, there was a female block, a male block and a disabled toilet. All open.
I was finished first and was outside waiting for my girls, when a strapping muscular 6 footer walked over to the male toilets, walked back out again, walked over to the ladies and checked the sign on the door (so knew it was female), then proceeded to go in anyway.
I followed him in to make sure my girls were okay. As they came out and stood at the sinks to wash their hands, he came out of the stall, over to the sink and stood there quite unperturbed washing his hands.

My daughters were mortified.
It did however give me a very good chance to explain the whole issue to them, including the fact that someone doesn't have to LOOK like a woman or make any changes at ALL to "identify" as a woman, which would (under self ID) give them the right to do this.

This man was in no way "trans" but it made me wonder if some men just feel now, that they can do whatever the hell they want in women's spaces and not have any deterrent or embarrassment about being there.
It was very intimidating - I did give him the evil eye but didn't feel like I could say anything to him, he was enormous.
There was no attendant to speak to.

Are women's spaces under such attack that even "normal" men think they are open to everyone?

On the flip side, I was recently at a concert where an older gentleman accidentally came in to the female toilets while I was at the sink (in fairness they were badly signposted). He was completely mortified, apologised profusely, and left immediately. THAT is how a decent man behaves when they find themselves in a woman's space.

Gavin de Becker is a good example of a decent man who absolutely makes no excuses for other men. As he said, the statistics are important for keeping women and children safe.

He's not threatened by the statistics, I wonder why so many other men are? Why would you care, if you know you're the good guy? Why wouldn't you want to do whatever possible to keep women and children safe?

I've noticed that good men actually go out of the way to not intimidate women and children because they know the statistics and they know we have no way of knowing who the decent guys are.

The thing is, there's a lot of NAMALT and I think that more than anything else tells you that actually, the number of guys that aren't the good guy is a lot greater than a lot of men and women want to believe.

Very much recommend de Becker's book 'protecting the gift' about keeping children safe. One of the things he says in that book is that you risk assess based on sex and men are much higher risk. It's just a fact.

One of the things he says in that book is that you risk assess based on sex and men are much higher risk. It's just a fact.

Exactly. I've been mugged, grabbed, groped, flashed and wanked at in public. Unsurprisingly not one of them was a woman.

No. There isn't any doubt. If he wanted the benefit of the doubt he should have politely explained to the women why he was trespassing in their space. There's no good excuse he could have had. OP is clear that the men's toilets were working. His whole behaviour was an insult to the women there: he felt like using their space so he did so, without any apology or explanation. No way that could be accidental.

Not the women's problem

At the opera in France I have found it quite usual for women to use the men's lavatories and dual sex loos are quite common in various places including restaurants. No-one seems bothered about it.

Me too. These are the ladies’ toilets and in no circumstance should a man be in there, however he self+identifies or whatever medical problems he might have. If he has a medical problem, he should use the disabled toilets. The rights that women have fought so hard for over the last hundred years or so are gradually being eroded. This matters. I would have reacted in exactly the same way as the OP. A six-foot tall man looks threatening and our instincts are a real thing. He knew exactly what he was doing.

This is the post I was referring to.

Stand down everyone - we have the winning argument. Ignore the fact that women (and most men) in the UK want exclusively single sex toilets and shouldn't have to explain why or make any justifications as to why, women attending the Opera in France use the men's toilets in the interval and it's all peachy, no-one is bothered.

Well that's me convinced.

What else should we do that France does? Ban the hijab perhaps?

I am just back from Cornwall as well. We were at Sennen Cove and I was about to pop to the loo when I saw the sign outside, “Unisex Toilet”. Now the building didn’t look like it had been modified but last year it was sex segregated, men one side, ladies the other, 2 cubicles in the ladies and sinks outside. I didnt use the facilities and nor did my husband and teenage sons, who didn’t want to use unisex facilities either, for not only their own privacy but so as not to make women uncomfortable

Thankfully we were leaving the beach so I was able to sit in the car in some discomfort until we got to the supermarkets

but yes with “unisex” ie toilets they’ve basically done nothing to make properly safe and private for both sexes to use except take off the “ladies” sign I do think men will start to just use women’s ones, as it becomes more common.

where is the basic decency and respect

I have also been in service station loos in France where the ladies was closed for cleaning and everyone was ushered into the gents. I do not have want to have to walk past a urinal of men pissing to get to a toilet. It’s grim.

That's happened to me too, both husband and I had to go and every single man and woman in there looked very uncomfortable so all this risible nonsense about no-one in France (or anywhere else cares) is just that - risible nonsense.

People of both sexes (the decent, considerate ones) do care and they want to give and be afforded the basic courtesy of privacy and dignity.

Well exactly. My teenage son would also be horrified if he was using a urinal and a woman or girl walked past. Yes I recall that time in France everyone seemed head down and shuffling

I was in a trendy restaurant in Manchester for our works Christmas party. I only found out the toilets were mixed sex when I walked passed a male colleague pissing at the trough to get to the cubicles. Shared hand basins, gaps at top and bottom of the cubicles doors. And of course, men stood at urinals facing the door that you walk through to enter the toilet block. So as I locked eyes with a man I work with while he was taking a piss, he looked just as mortified as me.

I've gently suggested this years venue has single sex toilets and got the eye roll from the young 20 yr old female organiser.

Sad thing is that the silly wee thing will change her tune when she - or a friend/relative has an experience (embarrassing, humiliating or frightening) in a mixed sex loo.

She probably thinks she is being sooooooo modern.

When I was 20 something, I tried to feel modern when I went to this hip restaurant where there were female/male toilets but open shared wash basins/mirrors. I secretly hated it, but had to act all nonchalant and nonplussed.

I don't think making excuses is the point. The OP wondered about the reason the man was in there. Presumably there was some reason, be it entitlement or something else.

It's just factually wrong to say that there is only one reason he might have gone in, whether you think he ought to have or not.

The only thing that we know for sure is that he used to women toilets when two teenage girls were in there.

Even if he didn't know they were there, he knew there would be a good chance that women or girls would be, maybe a girl by herself. We could spend hours making up reasons why he thought that was acceptable behaviour. It's not acceptable, though is it?

I don't mind using 'reason' or 'explanation' rather than 'excuse' if people prefer because the point, for me, is the same: that in a situation where all our instincts are shouting that something is off, we still default to looking for a benign reason. Even on this board we're doing it. I think it shows how deeply ingrained it is in women.

I used to do self defence training and big part of it was learning to listen to your own antennae. The instructor impressed on us not to waste time thinking of explanations or worrying about the man's feelings. (He was male.) I've long forgotten all the moves and techniques but I remember that bit. It makes me angry to see women and, even worse children, given any further encouragement to ignore or rationalise away their instincts when sometimes they're the only advantage we've got.

I am reminded of an incident maybe 30 years ago when I was in my 20s. I had a motorbike and had stopped at the side of the road, I can't remember why - to check some directions or something. A car pulled up some way away, maybe 10 or 15 metres. A man got out of the car but stayed behind the open door and shouted over to ask if I needed any help. He was clearly acting deliberately to make me feel not intimidated.

Why is the default that women are always looking to keep themselves safe, when it should be that men are always looking to not intimidate women?

Why is the default that women are always looking to keep themselves safe, when it should be that men are always looking to not intimidate women?

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