Please can someone explain like I’m 5

[Justdontgetit000]

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

Thank you so much @RoseslnTheHospital for this brilliant reply. It helps so much, and has made this easier to understand.

I do have a lot of other stuff going on in life, just saying that as I realise some people will think I’m ridiculous for this next statement: this whole trans situation has made me cry because I feel like I’m completely getting it one minute, then like I’m a hateful transphobic the next! Some things just seem too complex to understand properly.

Your reply is fantastic and really does make things much simpler to process.

You must know that you don't hate people or are phobic of them due to their transgender beliefs and identities. Disagreeing with someone and pointing out the factual or logical errors in their arguments is not hate or phobia. Don't let overconfident types make you doubt yourself.

Thanks for this, it really does help a lot, specifically the comparison to the fingers.

Looking at the gametes also helps to make it more basic and understandable.

I just remembered something else, I watched a film called the Danish Girl which was talked about in the Helen Joyce book. I read after watching it that the guy it was about was discovered to have shrunken ovaries and was most likely intersex or had another DSD. Yet he is regarded as an icon in the trans community.

The person in one of the pics I posted said a transwoman got her chromosomes tested and they were XX. How is this possible? I feel like what they’re saying is: Unless you get your chromosomes tested you really have no idea whether you’re a man or a woman “deep down” so just act the way you feel you most identify as!

The married men late in life are AGPs I’d imagine, although that’s another thing they say doesn’t exist 🤦‍♀️

Lots to think about! Maybe it takes time to process all this.

"Only women can give birth" - that's only wrong if you have changed the definition of 'woman' from 'female adult' to 'something I won't tell you'. So just chuck that one on that pile. It's a big pile.

www.quackometer.net/blog/2022/07/the-muddling-of-the-american-mind-part-i.html

^Here is a good and detailed blog about misinformation re sex chromosomes. It does bring up the point that I keep making, which is that you can have combinations of X and Y other than XX and XY, and it doesn't make someone not-male or not-female. As the blog says, many men and boys have XXY - often known as Kleinfelter syndrome. There is no question that they are still male.

The blog raises an interesting point about any supposed spectrums of sex - what would we even measure to see where a person is on that spectrum?
Comments are interesting.

Also, you are welcome 🙏🏻 thank you for your kind words. I owe all of my understanding and ability to explain clearly to the many women who have posted here over the course of the last decade or so on this topic.

You’re right yes, I don’t hate trans people at all, I wish for them to be happy and left alone in terms of abuse or harassment.

It’s also because when that person on Reddit commented about women giving birth being a biological fact, they deleted her comments and said it was due to “transphobia, bigotry, hateful comments”, something like that, am paraphrasing.

It just freaked me out that even saying that is considered hateful.

Wow thank you very much for this link! Will have a read. And I love your response to the “women giving birth” question! You’re right, it all comes back to changing the definition of what a woman actually is.

I think the multiple chromosomes thing muddies the waters because it does sound very legitimate, but if it’s just referring to DSDs then it’s a bit disingenuous.

Reddit is a cesspit run by moderators who treat it as their own personal fiefdom. Being banned by them is like being kicked out of a friendship group by the mean kid. It's meaningless. They have no authority or weight to declare things "transphobic" or hateful. It's essentially just their opinion.

❤️❤️❤️

You’re right it is, I must stop going on there. I attempted once to look on the actual Trans subreddit - never again!

DSDs by bio sex.

I can't hold in my head most of the explanations that @AlisonDonut ,@RoseslnTheHospital and other, brilliant posters put on here, other threads and elsewhere in the world. But I know that they are there and they make crystal clear sense. There's no obfuscation, just clear language and no 'woo'.

I don't want anyone to be unhappy that does not make me responsible for everyone's happiness. It would be an impossible task and an impossible burden. I know I am a good person. I don't expect everyone to share that view but I rarely let it trouble me.

This is amazing, thank you so much.

Oh I love this, and you absolutely do sound like a very nice person. I totally relate to what you’re saying. Love the way you say
“I don’t want anyone to be unhappy that does not make me responsible for everyone’s happiness”

So true.

@LaughingPriest "Only women can give birth" - that's only wrong if you have changed the definition of 'woman' from 'female adult' to 'something I won't tell you'. So just chuck that one on that pile. It's a big pile.

Totally, ☝a trick I've found works well in these situations op is to try replacing the word woman with "adult human female" and then with "glamourous goddess in a ball gown" (or whatever other stereotype seems to be in play) and you'll be able to see what people are trying to say. Here clearly it is the second meaning, glamourous goddesses in ball gowns are not the only people to give birth. I am perfectly happy for the nhs to get rid of sexist advice like we should all make sure we wear make up everyday whilst pregnant (speaking as a non-goddess) but not happy for them to change the meaning of the word woman iyswim.

"afab" assigned female at birth. Here in GC land as it were we don't necessary accept this concept. A person has a sex, and at any given point we have our best understanding of what that sex is. So afab is being particularly badly misused here. Sex is recognised at birth, and it is done with incredible accuracy, however there are times doctors get it wrong. Caster Semanya is a male, a male with a medical condition. A male with a medical condition that only effects male people. Her 'natural' hormones are produced by the testes which I believe she didn't even know she had until athletics testing showed an anomaly. Pointing out that she's black is a racist red herring. I actually had enormous sympathy with her and would happily have respected her privacy and never mentioned it again had she stopped competing as a woman. However I don't accept beating women in sporting events is a human right and there are plenty of people who have a medical condition that would stop them competing in international sports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#Sex_verification_tests

Bears repeating so just for emphasis and endorsement
@Justdontgetit000 @IcakethereforeIam

“I don’t want anyone to be unhappy that does not make me responsible for everyone’s happiness”
So true

I think I understand what you’re saying with the glamourous ball gown comparison. I will try that and think in other terms as well to try to get to the root of what they’re trying to say.

I don’t understand the afab thing either, it’s used a lot now I’ve noticed and it doesn’t make sense. As you say when a baby is seen on a scan or checked with chromosome testing, or born, the sex is SEEN with our eyes! It’s not assigned just so we can think of something to call them. It’s either one thing we can see or another thing 🤣 We don’t say “Well we have no idea what this child will choose to be when they grow up so let’s just go with girl for now”.

The Caster Semenya situation is another one I don’t fully understand, it was covered in the Trans book but I think I’ll have to listen to that whole book again because it was just too much. Totally agree that she shouldn’t be competing as a woman if she’s biologically a male.

Op don't worry, it takes time to understand all the intricacies of the topic. You will soon get to grips with the [cough cough] arguments of the gender identity ideologues and science deniers.

It's useful to remember where babies come from. Every human in all of history is the product of gametes from one female and one male. Everyone knows which of these they came out of.

The existence of people with differences of sexual development only proves that some human bodies do not develop in the way that they are supposed to. It does not prove that people who want to be the opposite sex actually are the opposite sex, that there are more than two sexes or that there is a physical basis for "trans" identities.

Even if there was a physical cause for "transness" and we could test for it, so what? Where the sexes are segregated, it's not on the basis of how we all feel about ourselves, it's on the basis of which of the two trypes of body people have.

Thank you @JacquelinePot
You’re right and you explain it in such a great way. I just have to say that the women on this board are incredible. So intelligent, articulate and knowledgeable. I’m grateful to be able to learn from you all, because without this board I’d be totally lost.

I have another question please feel free to ignore me!

It’s often seen that trans women (men) want to compete in women’s sports, but does it often happen the other way round, with trans men (women) attempting and demanding to compete with men in the men’s category?

I think there is one trans man rugby player I've heard of (could be wrong though). It's far less common than the other way round.

Ok interesting, thank you for replying! I’ll look into it more as it’s quite revealing if it turns out there’s very few compared to trans women.

there are a few afab nb and transman playing on women's teams at least at amateur level

Something is definitely off. I was much like you until someone told me my religion was transphobic (I am pagan) because the divine feminine and masculine exist and that the divine feminine being a pregnant goddess could make someone feel dyspeptic therefore I should give it up completely. This person was an idiot. An old friend actually but we argued and they insisted I give up my religion completely and then something in me just snapped and I got tired of defending it all. We are no longer friends.

I still support trans people but I’m sick of gender ideology. I think it’s over the top and gross to address people by their body posts and bodily functions and frankly dehumanizing. I think that the trans community has gotten way off track and they are being unreasonable. I also felt frustrated that most of the language seems to be hyper focused around female biology. I mean menstrators really? Should we call the “others” ejeculators? That would be really gross and offensive would it not??? But it is essentially the equivalent!!! That’s how ridiculous it sounds!

Don’t get me started on birthing person. 😫😏