Please can someone explain like I’m 5

[Justdontgetit000]

I’ve name changed for this.

I feel very weird about the trans issues lately, something feels “off” but I can’t put it into words. I’m pretty left wing, very pro-choice, I consider myself a feminist.

I “hang around” online with others who have similar beliefs to me mostly, they are the ones I find myself agreeing with and wanting to defend. So I feel like I know where I am with most topics. Then on a forum I lurk on, someone got banned for saying they don’t want to be referred to as body parts. The person who started the thread (who is also a mod) said that when discussing Roe v Wade we can’t just say “women” we also need to say AFAB or “womb/uterus owners”. If we don’t our posts will be removed. I don’t post on there anyway so doesn’t affect me, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

I can’t articulate why, I feel like I’m in a place mentally where I SHOULD be fine with this because of all my other beliefs. Does that make sense? Yet I felt angry reading this. I don’t want to be offending people simply for using the word “women”. Then I feel guilty and like I’m transphobic?

I want to say I have no issues with any trans people, in that I’d have nothing but love and support for a friend for example who was trans, and would never ever be rude to or abusive towards trans people. Yet I get the feeling my mixed emotions towards all this would get me called a TERF. I know what that stands for but don’t really understand the term, I know a little of JK Rowling and her situation and I read that she got some awful messages after her controversial tweets, and that scares me. So I’d only talk about this anonymously.

Can anyone help me figure out, in a very basic way, what is happening in my mind and perhaps point me in a direction where I can learn more? I’ve tried to look for threads like FAQs about this issue but can’t find any.

Thanks for reading!

This is excellent, makes things a lot clearer thank you. I especially love your final sentence about just the fact that the brain is inside a woman makes it a “woman brain”. That really spells it out very well.

Thanks for your reply, well I generally wouldn’t get medical info from people online unless they can provide proof or links to studies, which to be fair this person did. I should have saved them and wish I had now!

I appreciate the feedback and heads up about the studies, I hadn’t realised this. And so true that it’s important to look at where info is coming from, because some people will have certain interests to protect.

She is great, I’ve watched a couple of interviews on YouTube with her, very clear and easy to understand what she’s saying. I really want to get her book!

This is great, thank you. Im not the best at interpreting studies or data etc but will have a go!

Justdontgetit000
Thanks for your reply, well I generally wouldn’t get medical info from people online unless they can provide proof or links to studies, which to be fair this person did. I should have saved them and wish I had now!

The thing is, even if there is a study out there that says that there are somehow 'male' and 'female' brains, and that some trans people align more with a different brain or whatever - what does that even prove?

It certainly doesn't sway me that male bodied people should be in female spaces or sports teams etc. Regardless of how those males feel about themselves, they do not belong in women's spaces.
Why are men not being challenged on being more inclusive of gender non-conforming men? Why is this all on women to bear, we are supposed to move over and make space because a man say his brain tells him he want's to be a woman. To me that's not good enough.

I agree with you, very good point. It’s all on women isn’t it to make the allowances, the sacrifices and to change our language to suit these men. It’s becoming really clear to me after this few days of research that there’s a huge serving of misogyny that comes along with the trans activist movement.

I found myself agreeing with the likes of Laurence Fox and that wasn’t a nice feeling

I find this interesting because "look who you're aligning yourself with" is often used as a stick with which to beat us.

Lawrence Fox et al almost certainly believe that water is wet. Would it be rational to insist that water is dry, in an effort to avoid ever agreeing with the man?

I also don’t consider myself a ‘terf’ or a ‘radical’ anything, but I’m not a cis woman or a ‘person with a uterus’ (demeaning me to body parts).

I have been incredulous that anyone would actually think women would want to refer to themselves as ‘cis’ or ‘ovary carriers’ would ever be OK?!

And I’m pretty thankful that there are so called ‘terf’ people or ‘radical feminists’ or whatever that also stand up and say ‘not OK’ because the amount of horrific bullying… my goodness what an eye opener! Horrible towards women being perfectly reasonable 99.9% of the time.

I also started to notice lots of ways that there were real tangible harms to women. First that the equalities form I had to fill out for a job no longer asked for sex, but asked how ‘I identified’ in a big ‘woke’ academic employer, and so I realised that there were real life negative consequences. This employer wasn’t even counting women anymore, so how would the know if they were any biological women at all working for them?

Then I noticed the awful sex education in schools which was inappropriate and frankly dodgy… and then I couldn’t stop noticing!

@DdraigGoch yes I’ve been asked that by some people I know. Saying that if I stick up for the word ‘woman’ or demand that I as a woman am counted on the census form, or that my child isn’t told they have to change sex if they want to wear trousers or a skirt, then I am propping up right wing bigots.

I don’t know the right wing bigots or homophobes, I don’t like transphobes, I don’t like any phobes! But I am not in control of that, and should I then just be quiet?

I would be careful though, I am not sure I would want to go on a right wing news channel for example just because they were the only one wanting to air my views. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere.

You’re right yes, I regret writing that the way I did and apologies if I was using a lazy or otherwise “bad” argument.

I think I just meant that I don’t like him and haven’t for a while, so it felt strange to suddenly find myself agreeing with him. I think it’s an example of the polarising nature of things, as people mentioned on this thread.

Everything is either LEFT or RIGHT and there’s often no room for nuance where there should be.

That’s a very good point you make @CherryBlossomAutumn about organisations hiring people but not asking for their sex, just what they identify as. How can there then be a record of how many actual women work there.

I could even see this idea playing out where employers would deliberately hire trans women so that on paper it looks like they’re an equal opportunity employer, but knowing full well that these “women” won’t need the same allowances such as maternity leave, as bio women!! Or is that a crazy notion? 😬

Oh wow, I think the lightbulb just lit up above your head.
That's exactly it.
Think about
All women shortlists
Women only hospital wards
The womens prison estate
School girls
Changing rooms
Maternity leave/pay
"Female" carers looking after your mum in her home.
And anything else that only and only ever will affect women.
See how adding men (however they identify) being put in those spaces, what will happen to maternity stats. Theres already been a "woman" on an all female shortlist. Theres been a rape on a woman only ward and worse she was gas lighted about her rape.
There are so many men in the womens prison estate and so many more want to get in there. School girls are forced to change with a trans girl at school, share toilets with boys, and on and on. Theres a this never happens thread, good or not so good to read
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Everything is either LEFT or RIGHT and there’s often no room for nuance where there should be

LEFT wing women are women
RIGHT wing women are women
CENTRIST women are women.

All of the women and girls lose rights under this ideology. Wherever they are on the political spectrum. Even if they don't know it yet.

Yes that really did feel like a lightbulb moment, and reading all of your other examples is making it seem very clear too!

I just had an image of employers having a meeting and saying “Let’s kill two birds with one stone, we employ a few trans women, that way we get to be inclusive and please the whole crowd, AND we don’t have to worry about them getting pregnant and being distracted by new babies”. Not saying of course that TW don’t have kids, I realise that some will be in a relationship with bio women and become a dad (?) at some point. But we all know it’s women who bear the brunt of the actual sacrifice when it comes to juggling work and pregnancy/parenting.

That’s absolutely disgusting about the rape on the woman only ward, I can’t even believe they allowed the circumstances for that to happen, and then did they accuse her of lying after? Will have to research this. Thanks so much for the link to that thread 👍

Last night I discovered Posie Parker and watched a great interview with her, am confused though as she says she doesn’t identify as a feminist, and yet she seems so strongly defensive of women’s rights. I naively assumed that being gender critical automatically made a person a feminist lol.

Here is the transcript of Baroness Nicolson's speech to the House of Lords where she talks about the hospital rape. It was part of a debate on the egregious Annex B of the NHS Guidance on "Delivering Single-Sex Wards". She's one of the first speakers and it's the last couple of paras of her speech.

@Justdontgetit000 I think you're right (in some cases) about the types of porn men have been watching having a link to how they feel about themselves and women. The fact that "Lesbian" appears to many to be a word that describes a porn genre rather than human beings with a sexual orientation that deserve (s) respect may be part of the problem article on pornhub data Although that isn't a line we're usually allowed to discuss or speculate about for long.

To be clear I don't generalise about transpeople, I really don't. I just don't think that the life experiences, problems & issues of a 45yo heterosexual male who decides that he is actually a they and is a nb lesbian have anything much in common with my 10yo daughter who has declared herself to be a nb lesbian with they pronouns.

He has never been where she is, she will never, can never, grow up to be him (pronouns for coherence). That doesn't mean I hate either of them. I think her telling me she's a lesbian is to do with her having realised she is same sex attracted, that would clearly not be the same experience / journey / history for him.

I am not his support human I am her support human therefore I am acutely invested in making sure the wider society my daughter grows up in is as clear as possible that his feelings ( of wishing to have sex with Lesbians ) do not in any way give him a right to ignore disregard or overwrite my daughters feelings (of being a homosexual). Lesbians are not sex toys men are entitled to play with.

I am Bisexual I have been attracted to people who are men and people who are women so I am immune to accusations of being a 'genital fetishist' but I'm also old enough to remember when "I'm a Lesbian trapped in a Man's body" was just a joke t-shirt rather than a legitimate problem for lesbians to navigate bbc article . I mean to be fair there's nothing new about the "how do you know if if haven't tried it" / "just not met the right man yet" rhetoric (which ok may have been embarrassingly true in my case) but they were still considered old fashioned and transphobic things to say to Lesbians when I was young.

And here's the NHS document itself, complete with Annexe B.

I just had an image of employers having a meeting and saying “Let’s kill two birds with one stone, we employ a few trans women, that way we get to be inclusive and please the whole crowd, AND we don’t have to worry about them getting pregnant and being distracted by new babies
It's more like 7 birds, one stone. Think further.
As well as inclusive,
No maternity to pay
No cover for job to find and pay
Gender pay gap looks better or if enough transwomen are employed, no gap at all.
No menopause help as that's becoming a thing now, you get the idea I'm sure.

Last night I discovered Posie Parker and watched a great interview with
her, am confused though as she says she doesn’t identify as a feminist, and yet she seems so strongly defensive of women’s rights. I naively assumed that being gender critical automatically made a person a feminist lol

Frankly like many others here, I thought this whole shebang was done and dusted, there was no need for marches, protests whatever. We had parity.
Well I was wrong, and the fact that young girls are having double mastectomies and their arm skin fashioned into a neo penis or in more simple words, self mutilating in huge numbers and no one in power seems to care, made me a wee bit angry. And now nothing will stop me until we have actual parity in unassailable law. That all said, not sure I'm a feminist.

Oh they are some eye watering details here...

a female child describing herself as non binary should be housed with boys against her parents wishes if that is what she says she would prefer, even if the child is not giilick competent - joy! /sarcasm

I'll refrain from commenting too much but I also note the judge unconscious people by presentation i.e. their appearance which is to say their dress shoes and make-up. Clearly this will work fairly well for tw who clearly have a non-standard presentation for men, but is pretty crappy advice when it comes to women.

Thanks for this, appreciate it.

You’re right, it a lot of birds with one stone, it actually sounds very sinister when we put it like that. Almost like there’s some agenda at play, and they’re using the fact that lots of people want to be inclusive as pawns. I feel like I sound like a Q-anon conspiracy theorist saying this though!

Totally agree with your second paragraph, it’s horrifying, and what’s more concerning is that not enough people know or care about it.

I hear you and completely agree. I think a lot of men have fetishised lesbianism and made it (in their minds) to be about something it isn’t necessarily about.

Wishing the very best for your daughter 🥰

There’s so much that is concerning about gender ideology - as spelt out in this thread. But one simple aspect that makes me so sad right now is how it impacts on the confidence of girls and women. If the very basic act of defining ourselves as a girl or woman is mired in awkwardness and shame what is that doing to our collective confidence and joy and pride in ourselves? What are we teaching our daughters- that being a girl/ woman is something to be couched almost in secrecy?!
And what is this insidious damage to our confidence doing to our ability to achieve well (especially compared to men) in education, the workplace etc? When it comes to having healthy boundaries in relationships?
This direct hit to our self worth must have ripple effects all over the place.
You will of course note that boys and men do not suffer any equivalent damage.

@Justdontgetit000 thanks, since she came out as a lesbian she does seem happier :-D the fact that telling me she wasn't actually like properly a girl came first is absolutely heartbreaking to me.

/and I meant homophobic not transphobic in the last sentence of the previous post but I think it was clear from context.

Anyway once again welcome to the den of vipers that is mumsnet fwr. Us evil old hate filled hags have tea and cookies, hang out anytime.🤗

I feel for her, it must be very very difficult being a teenager in today’s climate, and so confusing. You sound like a lovely mum and some who who’s got her back and that she can confide in, if she has that foundation it counts for so much 💕

Ah yes I read it as meaning homophobic the way you wrote it.
And thanks so much for the welcome, so far loving the vipers den and have learned a crazy amount since posting this thread!