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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If your child has come out as trans what are you doing?

172 replies

Eatingchips · 03/07/2022 10:51

I suppose I am interested in this because 3 years ago my DD suggested she might be trans and it is ongoing.

She says that some days she feels like a boy and some days she feels like a girl. She considers herself non binary and has the pronouns they/them - she/her and he/him and wants all 3 used interchangeably. She has given herself a male name but we don’t use that because a diminutive of her actual name is unisex/male and I have always mainly called her the diminutive name anyway so we have stuck to that.

She has all her life been gender non conforming whatever that means or an old school tomboy and coming from that experience myself I have always whole heartedly embraced that aspect of her.

She has some trauma in her past. She also has many traits of ASD which are becoming more pronounced as she gets older and a diagnosed sibling and another sibling likely to have ASD as well.

She is fully out in school and this is rife in her friend group.

My main focus at the moment is to embrace what she says in order not to alienate her. She feels how she feels and since that isn’t rational I’m trying to meet her where she is at. I have told her that we will support her no matter what and no matter where this journey takes her but I have discussed the perils of the medicalisation of trans people and how it is unlikely that anyone who could recover psychologically if they despised their body all their lives no matter how much surgery or treatment they had. I explained to her that the brain operates on patterns of thought and just because you change your body if you continuously have patterns of thought hating your body then most likely it will take an incredible effort to shift your brain from those patterns of thought even if you’ve changed your body. That seems to have helped her to make peace with her body as it is at the moment because in many ways she is a very rational person.

But it is an incredibly tricky path and we are very reluctant to involve psychologists or medical professionals given the culture of the moment. What are others doing? I’d love to hear from other parents in a similar situation.

OP posts:
Kerrrmieee · 05/07/2022 14:22

Posting to follow so I can reply later - I could have written your OP, OP!

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 05/07/2022 14:23

@PearlClutch

"Much in the same way I have discussed religion with them - in what I hope is a non-judgemental way, but also let them know that some religions do try to recruit and manipulate vulnerable people."

Absolutely this, it is a thing some people believe, it is not what I believe, True believers will sometimes present their beliefs as facts.

thumbtom · 05/07/2022 14:28

I haven't had time to read this whole thread but just wanted to say thanks - it's fascinating and compassionate and seems really helpful to me (hopefully) for those of you in this position. This is an issue that I find quite difficult to navigate (no kids myself but when working with young people etc..) and I've really learned from the wisdom here - I'll be back later to read more thanks.

morescrummythanyummy · 05/07/2022 14:53

@LittlestBaoBun

This was very interesting and thoughtful.

Can I ask, though, what human rights you feel trans people miss out on and what trans people get a "blanket no" on? I suppose that I feel absolutely the opposite to you - I have seen far more "TWAW no debate" and refusal to discuss eg third space/middle way options from the trans lobby. Most trans people I have come across are people like you, who wish to keep their heads down and live a peaceful life.

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 14:54

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 05/07/2022 14:23

@PearlClutch

"Much in the same way I have discussed religion with them - in what I hope is a non-judgemental way, but also let them know that some religions do try to recruit and manipulate vulnerable people."

Absolutely this, it is a thing some people believe, it is not what I believe, True believers will sometimes present their beliefs as facts.

Yep I do agree with that too.

OP posts:
HerrenaHarridan · 05/07/2022 16:20

I just wanted to say thank you to all the parents on this thread who put aside their own beliefs and focussed on making their child feel heard and understood.

I am still grieving someone whose mother was more concerned with ‘undermining the trans agenda’ than hearing or seeing her daughters struggle.

I wish her mum had people like you around her to help her see she didn’t have to believe in anything to make her daughter feel loved and accepted

morescrummythanyummy · 05/07/2022 16:33

@LittlestBaoBun

Sorry, I should have said that I am asking this not to try to argue you back from how you feel or to start a debate, but to try to understand whether there is more that I can do as someone who is GC (in the sense that I do think that biological sex is important in some contexts and I don't really believe that everyone has a separate gender identity outside of their sex (I have always been more stereotypically masculine in my interests) and I feel uncomfortable with some of the sex stereotyping that is inherent in the mermaids-type materials out there, but I absolutely do believe that some people do experience a real and disorientating sense of dysphoria in their body, which may well be alleviated by some form of transition), but who also wants to be supportive and compassionate of trans people.

PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 17:07

'thank you to all the parents on this thread who put aside their own beliefs and focussed on making their child feel heard and understood'

It's perfectly possible to ensure a child is heard and understood, loved and accepted, while holding true to one's own beliefs. In fact, I would say it's almost impossible to set aside one's beliefs entirely, whatever they are.

And it would be enormously negligent to set aside some beliefs (that a child should be protected, safe, cared for, etc).

Some of the strong beliefs shared by women include: the importance of critical thinking, child safeguarding, child protection, and ensuring the wellbeing of children. Those beliefs are not ever ones that should be 'put aside'.

SomePosters · 05/07/2022 17:15

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

LittlestBaoBun · 05/07/2022 17:33

morescrummythanyummy · 05/07/2022 16:33

@LittlestBaoBun

Sorry, I should have said that I am asking this not to try to argue you back from how you feel or to start a debate, but to try to understand whether there is more that I can do as someone who is GC (in the sense that I do think that biological sex is important in some contexts and I don't really believe that everyone has a separate gender identity outside of their sex (I have always been more stereotypically masculine in my interests) and I feel uncomfortable with some of the sex stereotyping that is inherent in the mermaids-type materials out there, but I absolutely do believe that some people do experience a real and disorientating sense of dysphoria in their body, which may well be alleviated by some form of transition), but who also wants to be supportive and compassionate of trans people.

To be honest, I don't know. I'm a skeptical scientific type (who struggles with their very pagan hippy dippy beliefs as a result haha) who says twaw, tmam, enbies and gender queer folks are valid. It doesn't mean I deny biology.

13 years ish ago I had a fling with a woman who was born a man and fully transitioned. So to me, I was up close and personal to her, minus clothes, it's amazing what can be done by clever and skilled surgeons. To me, she was she, she only missed ovaries and a uterus which can't be seen from the outside anyway.

Twenty years ago I dated a guy who was on the fence with his gender identity but who wore a lot of feminine skirts and tight tops (I'll never not find that a little hot, I think, he really rocked his outfits) and at that stage at least, yes, under the pants his biology screamed dude.

But there genuinely is a very bizarre but scientifically journalled spectrum of sexual biology. And it's something I wish they'd taught us at school. I wish I could link people to the information. Someone made a long meme out of it but I read history at uni and I'm a stickler for my journals and papers.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I just want everyone to somehow get onto the same page where by everyone from the fiercest of GC folks to the fiercest trans advocates is actually able to hold conversations about the whole subject, but also actually make progress towards outcomes which treat all parties equally, respect everyone's rights, and this does mean being able to accept that there will always be trans and gender queer people, there always have been.

It's just not every GC person has the same goals in mind, and some are just so very vile and intolerant of folks like me even existing - and a lot of my most cared about friends are some of the louder trans advocates who simply won't take no for an answer anymore. I genuinely understand where some people's issues with trans people in women's spaces comes from - a friend of mine started going down the GC route and came back, but still has her reservations and reasoning. It's she who explained to me why it's such a genuine problem for some women (this is without mentioning the few dodgy predatory trans women - whether they actually were trans women or just saying they were - I'm putting that box aside for the moment and concentrating on the vast majority of trans women) to encounter someone who still looks very male, or not quite female enough, in loos or changing rooms etc. Her perspective helped me a lot.

I have experienced sexual harassment and assault numerous times over the years but have been around 'gender bending' goth types for a good 25 years and it just doesn't faze me. Where as a male optician or dentist right up in my face gives me a panic attack and certain kind of women who behave a certain way trigger me thanks to the last arse who assaulted me - twice at that. This stuff makes sense to me and is why I want that conversation to be able to happen.

But people need to stop saying we are a movement, or grooming kids, it's not an ideology, it's not some evil conspiracy. Kids are the main focus of posts I see, folks genuinely don't seem to realise how many adults of very varying ages actually have gender incongruence. Kids being kids, things will appear to become trendy. Whether it's having that goth phase, or that emo phase, or that lesbian phase, or that vegan phase, or the mad rush to get into D&D... Kids are kids.

Most kids who come out gay or trans or whatever, they're just experimenting, finding themselves, some drop it, some don't. For kids who genuinely are distressed about puberty, blockers buy the family time. I've read so many posts online from youngsters who just aren't coping with puberty, with a very developed body which feels alien. Our trans kids are seriously suicidal. They need support, they need validation. A hand hold at least. Like I said, some get through it and don't ever take hormones or have surgery. But whether someone wants to wear a binder, or take hormones, or end up with surgery later down the line, or present typically opposite to their birth sex superficially - our bodies, our choices.

Some GC folk bang on about mutilating perfect bodies'. But I can tell you now, my body is very, very imperfect and always was so imperfect that because i wasn't even able to get a reduction on the NHS, my upper spine is absolutely fucked. My chest skin is difficult to describe. My posture is going to take a lot of training and physiotherapy to ever get better. There are so many other people like me out there who don't just have gender incongruence but who have very badly behaved bodies which genuinely benefit from the relief granted by full radical top surgery. Our bodies, our choices, our autonomy.

I could fly my son out to another country in a year's time and get him top surgery. Well, if I had the funds which I don't. But I wouldn't do it. I firmly believe he needs to go through that decision after he's a legal adult in his own right. But if it's the choice he makes, I'll never think less of him. It's choosing a socially difficult path but it's easing an otherwise difficult life.

Kids are talking about it more because education is important - I grew up with a lesbian aunt who wasn't allowed to sleep in my room unless another visiting relative was also staying in my room. I absolutely hate that that's even a thing - or was a thing - because it came out of the idea in the eighties that gays were automatically paedos or perverts. Yet I can't talk to her about my surgery because she's GC.

Sorry for yet another epic saga of a reply. I hope my paragraphs have... Paragraphed? Like I said, I don't know. I don't have an answer which would change anything, right now. I think just accepting that we exist and letting us be 'seen', validated, cherished as much as any other human alongside us, that would be good. We are all humans and we shouldn't be fighting each other.

I need food and sleep. Oh my everything, I've been awake nearly 32 hours. Thanks for being kind in your correspondence. And I've probably not answered anything.

PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 17:45

I dated a guy who was on the fence with his gender identity but who wore a lot of feminine skirts and tight tops (I'll never not find that a little hot, I think, he really rocked his outfits) and at that stage at least, yes, under the pants his biology screamed dude

How is this helpful to the OP's question?

heathspeedwell · 05/07/2022 18:00

I think people should actually have to take puberty blockers themselves for six months before they can make daft claims about these dangerous drugs "buying time". We already know from the research from the Tavistock Clinic that almost all children who take blockers go on to take cross sex hormones.

I've taken these drugs (for endometriosis) and the side effects are incredibly harsh. Many of the effects are not reversible and can cause life-long damage. It's worth noting that research suggests that blockers can lead to an increase in suicidality.

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

FilePhoto · 05/07/2022 18:05

I've just recently found out (via SM) that DS1 (17) identifies as a demiboy, and used he/they/it pronouns. At least on discord.
I have a serious problem with "it" as a pronoun, but unless he asks me to use it I guess I its not my problem as it were.
I don't really understand the demiboy thing, sounds like "normal" to me. Maybe I'm a demigirl and never knew.

Ho hum. I guess I have to decide if I mention it to him. Or wait for him to tell me.

Cameleongirl · 05/07/2022 18:10

heathspeedwell · 05/07/2022 18:00

I think people should actually have to take puberty blockers themselves for six months before they can make daft claims about these dangerous drugs "buying time". We already know from the research from the Tavistock Clinic that almost all children who take blockers go on to take cross sex hormones.

I've taken these drugs (for endometriosis) and the side effects are incredibly harsh. Many of the effects are not reversible and can cause life-long damage. It's worth noting that research suggests that blockers can lead to an increase in suicidality.

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

I agree, @heathspeedwell I’m not medically trained, but given that many women can’t tolerate and/or experience side effects from contraceptive pills, I can’t imagine what puberty blockers do to the body.

iIt’s very naive to assume that they don’t/won’t have serious side effects and possible long term health implications.

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 18:22

LittlestBaoBun · 05/07/2022 17:33

To be honest, I don't know. I'm a skeptical scientific type (who struggles with their very pagan hippy dippy beliefs as a result haha) who says twaw, tmam, enbies and gender queer folks are valid. It doesn't mean I deny biology.

13 years ish ago I had a fling with a woman who was born a man and fully transitioned. So to me, I was up close and personal to her, minus clothes, it's amazing what can be done by clever and skilled surgeons. To me, she was she, she only missed ovaries and a uterus which can't be seen from the outside anyway.

Twenty years ago I dated a guy who was on the fence with his gender identity but who wore a lot of feminine skirts and tight tops (I'll never not find that a little hot, I think, he really rocked his outfits) and at that stage at least, yes, under the pants his biology screamed dude.

But there genuinely is a very bizarre but scientifically journalled spectrum of sexual biology. And it's something I wish they'd taught us at school. I wish I could link people to the information. Someone made a long meme out of it but I read history at uni and I'm a stickler for my journals and papers.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I just want everyone to somehow get onto the same page where by everyone from the fiercest of GC folks to the fiercest trans advocates is actually able to hold conversations about the whole subject, but also actually make progress towards outcomes which treat all parties equally, respect everyone's rights, and this does mean being able to accept that there will always be trans and gender queer people, there always have been.

It's just not every GC person has the same goals in mind, and some are just so very vile and intolerant of folks like me even existing - and a lot of my most cared about friends are some of the louder trans advocates who simply won't take no for an answer anymore. I genuinely understand where some people's issues with trans people in women's spaces comes from - a friend of mine started going down the GC route and came back, but still has her reservations and reasoning. It's she who explained to me why it's such a genuine problem for some women (this is without mentioning the few dodgy predatory trans women - whether they actually were trans women or just saying they were - I'm putting that box aside for the moment and concentrating on the vast majority of trans women) to encounter someone who still looks very male, or not quite female enough, in loos or changing rooms etc. Her perspective helped me a lot.

I have experienced sexual harassment and assault numerous times over the years but have been around 'gender bending' goth types for a good 25 years and it just doesn't faze me. Where as a male optician or dentist right up in my face gives me a panic attack and certain kind of women who behave a certain way trigger me thanks to the last arse who assaulted me - twice at that. This stuff makes sense to me and is why I want that conversation to be able to happen.

But people need to stop saying we are a movement, or grooming kids, it's not an ideology, it's not some evil conspiracy. Kids are the main focus of posts I see, folks genuinely don't seem to realise how many adults of very varying ages actually have gender incongruence. Kids being kids, things will appear to become trendy. Whether it's having that goth phase, or that emo phase, or that lesbian phase, or that vegan phase, or the mad rush to get into D&D... Kids are kids.

Most kids who come out gay or trans or whatever, they're just experimenting, finding themselves, some drop it, some don't. For kids who genuinely are distressed about puberty, blockers buy the family time. I've read so many posts online from youngsters who just aren't coping with puberty, with a very developed body which feels alien. Our trans kids are seriously suicidal. They need support, they need validation. A hand hold at least. Like I said, some get through it and don't ever take hormones or have surgery. But whether someone wants to wear a binder, or take hormones, or end up with surgery later down the line, or present typically opposite to their birth sex superficially - our bodies, our choices.

Some GC folk bang on about mutilating perfect bodies'. But I can tell you now, my body is very, very imperfect and always was so imperfect that because i wasn't even able to get a reduction on the NHS, my upper spine is absolutely fucked. My chest skin is difficult to describe. My posture is going to take a lot of training and physiotherapy to ever get better. There are so many other people like me out there who don't just have gender incongruence but who have very badly behaved bodies which genuinely benefit from the relief granted by full radical top surgery. Our bodies, our choices, our autonomy.

I could fly my son out to another country in a year's time and get him top surgery. Well, if I had the funds which I don't. But I wouldn't do it. I firmly believe he needs to go through that decision after he's a legal adult in his own right. But if it's the choice he makes, I'll never think less of him. It's choosing a socially difficult path but it's easing an otherwise difficult life.

Kids are talking about it more because education is important - I grew up with a lesbian aunt who wasn't allowed to sleep in my room unless another visiting relative was also staying in my room. I absolutely hate that that's even a thing - or was a thing - because it came out of the idea in the eighties that gays were automatically paedos or perverts. Yet I can't talk to her about my surgery because she's GC.

Sorry for yet another epic saga of a reply. I hope my paragraphs have... Paragraphed? Like I said, I don't know. I don't have an answer which would change anything, right now. I think just accepting that we exist and letting us be 'seen', validated, cherished as much as any other human alongside us, that would be good. We are all humans and we shouldn't be fighting each other.

I need food and sleep. Oh my everything, I've been awake nearly 32 hours. Thanks for being kind in your correspondence. And I've probably not answered anything.

Thank you so much for your post @LittlestBaoBun obviously being GC I have very different views from you as you have no doubt been reading across this thread but your lived experience helps me enormously to broaden my understanding of persistent gender dysphoria which with a child experiencing these challenges is incredibly important to me. I completely agree that sharing perspectives, especially personal lived perspectives is incredibly important.

OP posts:
LittlestBaoBun · 05/07/2022 18:29

It's one of those things. We'll probably never agree, never see eye to eye, but if we never talk - and on a respectful level (I hope I have been respectful -also I'm a rambler and don't employ the wonderful English language skills I was taught, oops) then there will never be progress.

Seeing my reply quoted and having to scroll down it to reply was painful - congrats on getting through that trilogy's worth of typing 🤦

💛🌍

PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 18:33

a lot of my most cared about friends are some of the louder trans advocates who simply won't take no for an answer anymore

What is this relating to? What 'no' won't they take for an answer?

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 18:36

FilePhoto · 05/07/2022 18:05

I've just recently found out (via SM) that DS1 (17) identifies as a demiboy, and used he/they/it pronouns. At least on discord.
I have a serious problem with "it" as a pronoun, but unless he asks me to use it I guess I its not my problem as it were.
I don't really understand the demiboy thing, sounds like "normal" to me. Maybe I'm a demigirl and never knew.

Ho hum. I guess I have to decide if I mention it to him. Or wait for him to tell me.

I don’t use pronouns much when referring to my daughter and there is the added complication in her case that with her friends she seems to use them all interchangeably and that matters to her so I use her unisex version of her name almost entirely more than you might typically do to overcome this (obviously not here) I don’t think I’d love the “it” either.

OP posts:
PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 18:37

heathspeedwell · 05/07/2022 18:00

I think people should actually have to take puberty blockers themselves for six months before they can make daft claims about these dangerous drugs "buying time". We already know from the research from the Tavistock Clinic that almost all children who take blockers go on to take cross sex hormones.

I've taken these drugs (for endometriosis) and the side effects are incredibly harsh. Many of the effects are not reversible and can cause life-long damage. It's worth noting that research suggests that blockers can lead to an increase in suicidality.

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

sorry to hear about your endo and subsequent experiences with GnRHa. I have a friend with recurring terminal prostate cancer who was on the same drugs; he really was averse to taking them again despite knowing what that would mean for his prognosis, so I have a glimmer of understanding of what you may have gone through. Hope you are recovered.

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 18:43

LittlestBaoBun · 05/07/2022 18:29

It's one of those things. We'll probably never agree, never see eye to eye, but if we never talk - and on a respectful level (I hope I have been respectful -also I'm a rambler and don't employ the wonderful English language skills I was taught, oops) then there will never be progress.

Seeing my reply quoted and having to scroll down it to reply was painful - congrats on getting through that trilogy's worth of typing 🤦

💛🌍

@LittlestBaoBun I think you are an excellent communicator and your posts here have been really insightful. I believe you have been incredibly respectful. I completely agree about hearing things out.

I still obviously have my own views too.

OP posts:
PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 18:55

some are just so very vile and intolerant

incredibly respectful, eh?

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 19:13

PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 18:55

some are just so very vile and intolerant

incredibly respectful, eh?

I have mentioned that I don’t share @LittlestBaoBun views but I can easily imagine that views that really hurt @LittlestBaoBun will make her question the people expressing the views. We are all humans and comments that really, really hurt us emotionally often result in people, rightly or wrongly, questioning the character of the people making them. Add to that of course I am also pretty sure there are vile people out there in the wider world with GC views but personally I don’t believe there have been any on this thread.

OP posts:
LittlestBaoBun · 05/07/2022 21:53

Eatingchips · 05/07/2022 19:13

I have mentioned that I don’t share @LittlestBaoBun views but I can easily imagine that views that really hurt @LittlestBaoBun will make her question the people expressing the views. We are all humans and comments that really, really hurt us emotionally often result in people, rightly or wrongly, questioning the character of the people making them. Add to that of course I am also pretty sure there are vile people out there in the wider world with GC views but personally I don’t believe there have been any on this thread.

Thank you, you get it :)

And yes, vile and intolerant is very right. There really are some very horrid people out there. Not just people who have issue with people like me.

I'm a very firm believer in what goes around comes around, and it literally plays out in front of me on all the threads I read where trans comes up in conversation.

I name change a lot, but I also until a week or two ago, rarely actually commented - I read, or started to read, then abandoned. Because repeatedly these threads become a certain kind of pile on.

Basically, you can discuss your views and feelings respectfully and with kindness and rationality, or you can literally ride in on what's the horse metaphor I'm looking for? with all its bells and whistles and something to do with deliberately misgendering, the spite in most of these comments is literally in your face as you read.

There's no need for constant personal attacks, constant battle-ready attitudes and absolute dismissal of anything you don't agree with.

The way people speak about other people on this forum makes me super sad (I only ever came here for the parking threads a few years back and I'm still here somehow) because whatever we believe, not one of us is better than another, and if someone strongly GC (and even if it was someone spouting horrid hateful comments) was in an accident near me, I'd still do everything I've been taught, to ensure they don't pop their clogs (or whatever footwear they are wearing).

Constant goady threads or goady comments are super unproductive. And they happen pretty much daily. And some of the posters are actually vile for speaking the way they do. I will also point out that I know one or two people (actually, might just be the one, now I think about it) who is on the trans ally side but whose comments on Facebook make me uncomfortable too.

It's not healthy to be constantly on the defensive, offensive, destructive, etc. Sometimes it feels like we all need bunging in one giant room together and locked in til we figure this all out in the best interests of all parties. And I mean all. All of our feelings are valid, even if we don't all agree. We have these feelings for valid reasons.

How many paragraphs is that, now? I only wanted to leave a short comment but I'm that annoying person in the club/ pub/ library/ insert-whatever-place who never shuts up 😜bloody ADHD.

Going to hopefully fall asleep in a mo. I feel like I've been standing on a little soapbox. I rarely engage with anyone repeatedly, even with my friends 🤣 I really appreciate being able to have this conversation. Thank you.

PearlClutch · 05/07/2022 21:56

Sometimes it feels like we all need bunging in one giant room together and locked in

That's literally what we're trying to avoid.

MangyInseam · 05/07/2022 22:31

My response with my dd? What a lot of others recommended, let her wear what she wanted, looked at online influences and school stuff, ended up removing her from school, got her involved in some other activities, did not let her change her name, did not use different pronouns, somewhat turned a blind eye to some interactions with friends that weren't great.

Ultimately she's largely grown out of it.