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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Baroness Nicholson on Regent Street flags

385 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 01/07/2022 09:23

Her letter here:

twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1542733465157877760/photo/1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
KittenKong · 02/07/2022 11:41

I see people around London posing with their little flags. It’s like carnival. I see people on twitter posting images of their ‘costumes’ (again like carnival - or a soho sex shop). It’s just one big party - nothing to do with gay rights.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2022 11:44

The rainbow flag used to be an indicator that the establishment was gay themed (like a gay bar, gay book shop etc), now it is used by all businesses (who were rather quiet about the issue in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s).

It's worth looking at their corporate presence in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. What a positive message it would be for some of those subsidiaries to share pride messaging in countries where being gay is persecuted? I wonder why they don't?

Icantreachthepretzels · 02/07/2022 11:49

Hearach - I don't think you understand that tweet (or perhaps you do but are being disingenuous). It's not saying what you think it's saying at all. She isn't saying being a lesbian is 'degrading' she is saying that she thought allowing same sex marriage would 'degrade' (by which she means blur/ confuse/ change for the worse) the status of what a woman was and their treatment in society.

And you cannot argue that she has not been proven right. Even the UN now refuses to define a woman.

I don't agree that it is same sex marriage itself that has caused it (But then I don't know that she thought precisely that either), but the fact is Stonewall have pivoted to their anti-sex based rights, pro-gender, TRA stance since marriage equality was achieved, their initial aims seeming complete, and so they found a new cause to champion in order to keep the money coming in. Gay marriage has - inadvertantly - been the catalyst for Stonewall campaigning to remove women's rights and redefine homosexuality against the will of actual homosexuals.

This is not gay marriage's fault, nor does it make gay marriage a bad thing or even the voting for it a bad thing. It is entirely Stonewall's fault for choosing to champion a further, nebulous cause - not in line with their initial aims - just to stay on the gravy train. It is an act of corporate greed.

However, it is no bad thing for our lawmakers to stop and think of the full ramifications of any piece of legislation - no matter how honourable and just its intentions - before it is passed into law. Nor is it a bad thing for them to vote against that legislation if they think it is badly worded and that the ramifications will be negative and far reaching.

The baroness has said she thought the status of wome would be degraded following marriage equality being granted - as it was worded in the law she was voting on - and it has been.

Stop pretending that you think that means she has said that lesbians getting married is degrading.

BootsAndRoots · 02/07/2022 12:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2022 11:44

The rainbow flag used to be an indicator that the establishment was gay themed (like a gay bar, gay book shop etc), now it is used by all businesses (who were rather quiet about the issue in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s).

It's worth looking at their corporate presence in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. What a positive message it would be for some of those subsidiaries to share pride messaging in countries where being gay is persecuted? I wonder why they don't?

Exactly, Amazon go on about how they care about their LGBT+ employees and how LGBT+ rights are human rights, yet they've blocked people searching for gay themed stuff in Saudi Arabia.

These companies care about gay rights in countries where gay rights already exist, they don't care about gay rights in countries where it is illegal.

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:14

That’s because they just have to do a quick rebrand - they don’t actually have to DO anything. Especially they don’t have to visibly do anything at all in countries who may ban them from operating.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:16

Helleofabore · 02/07/2022 10:49

Why not ask her directly? By email. She won’t reply to twitter or other DMs. But she does reply to emails.

Ask her directly.

As someone fighting for women’s and children’s rights from at least the 80s, I expect she has seen more loopholes appear in poorly worded legislation in the UK and at EU level than anyone posting here.

She obviously saw some potential conflict in the rights for women than you. It is worth engaging with her on it.

Or is it just convenient to keep monstering her on Mumsnet?

I'm not the one defending her!

Do you agree with her that gay marriage "degrades" women?

I can hardly see how someone can be "fighting for women" if she wishes to prevent those women who chose to from marrying and having children with other women.

In fact, I see that as a significant curtailment of the rights of women. Would you not agree?

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:20

Helleofabore · 02/07/2022 10:54

Yes. In 2020, she wrote a tweet to explain her previous lack of support for a particular wording of a particular bill.

So what?

This is not her, in 2020, stating she doesn’t support same sex marriage in concept and in current legislation.

But do crack on.

Where has she said she now supports it?

She says in the tweet that she her opposition to it on the grounds it "degrades women" has since been "justified" by events.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:22

Cocolapew · 02/07/2022 11:03

I don't understand the idea that if someone doesn't have exactly the same views with you about everything you believe in then you should never support then in voicing opinions that you both agree on.
I live in NI, I work with a lot of people who are anti abortion, I'm not. But we all get along and work well together because we are adults whose entire personality isn't shaped by certain opinions.
I think I'm right, they think they are and we are both entitled to think this 🤷

I'm sure if I met the Baroness I would think her a perfectly pleasant individual but that still doesn't mean she can't be a homophobe.

LunaLights · 02/07/2022 12:24

Have just caught up on this thread - and it appears there is a concerted effort to get this thread deleted….. Almost the full repertoire of insults and denigration has been spewed - I do hope it is preserved for posterity and sunlight.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:24

Helleofabore · 02/07/2022 11:06

I tell you what. I will write her an email. She has replied to my other emails, so I have no concerns that she won’t answer and answer honestly.

Why don’t I ask her for you if you cannot being yourself to ask her yourself rather than monster and demonise her.

As I have said, She has been involved in the development of laws protecting women and children at local, national UK and at EU level. I would expect she saw a way this would cause negative effects to women that you and I cannot see.

Unless you are a experienced legislator or campaigner for women’s needs heararche. Are you?

Great, ask her:

"Do you now support gay marriage?"

"Do you support gay couples having equal access to IVF and adoption in order to have families?"

"Do you support sex ed in schools and if so should it include be LGBT inclusive?"

"Do you think Section 28 was a mistake?"

If she answers 'No' to any of those questions she's a homophobe :)

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:26

Helleofabore · 02/07/2022 11:10

Bring not being.

apologies

You still haven't told me how gay marriage "degrades women"? What examples does this noble and learned Baroness have?

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:27

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 11:41

I see people around London posing with their little flags. It’s like carnival. I see people on twitter posting images of their ‘costumes’ (again like carnival - or a soho sex shop). It’s just one big party - nothing to do with gay rights.

Flags that show people support LGBT rights.

It's like how people put out flags to show they support the Queen a few weeks ago :)

(And yes, both Pride and Jubilee events were also parties - so what?)

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:29

Icantreachthepretzels · 02/07/2022 11:49

Hearach - I don't think you understand that tweet (or perhaps you do but are being disingenuous). It's not saying what you think it's saying at all. She isn't saying being a lesbian is 'degrading' she is saying that she thought allowing same sex marriage would 'degrade' (by which she means blur/ confuse/ change for the worse) the status of what a woman was and their treatment in society.

And you cannot argue that she has not been proven right. Even the UN now refuses to define a woman.

I don't agree that it is same sex marriage itself that has caused it (But then I don't know that she thought precisely that either), but the fact is Stonewall have pivoted to their anti-sex based rights, pro-gender, TRA stance since marriage equality was achieved, their initial aims seeming complete, and so they found a new cause to champion in order to keep the money coming in. Gay marriage has - inadvertantly - been the catalyst for Stonewall campaigning to remove women's rights and redefine homosexuality against the will of actual homosexuals.

This is not gay marriage's fault, nor does it make gay marriage a bad thing or even the voting for it a bad thing. It is entirely Stonewall's fault for choosing to champion a further, nebulous cause - not in line with their initial aims - just to stay on the gravy train. It is an act of corporate greed.

However, it is no bad thing for our lawmakers to stop and think of the full ramifications of any piece of legislation - no matter how honourable and just its intentions - before it is passed into law. Nor is it a bad thing for them to vote against that legislation if they think it is badly worded and that the ramifications will be negative and far reaching.

The baroness has said she thought the status of wome would be degraded following marriage equality being granted - as it was worded in the law she was voting on - and it has been.

Stop pretending that you think that means she has said that lesbians getting married is degrading.

Gay marriage has not degraded women. In fact it has given women the freedom to marry women.

She's just a homophobe coming up with imaginary reasons to deny lesbians and gay men freedom of choice.

Clymene · 02/07/2022 12:40

As has been repeated several times on the thread @Hearach15 Stonewall didn't lobby for gay marriage

www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/09/27/stonewall-co-founder-michael-cashman-what-part-of-equality-cant-stonewall-understand/

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:45

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:27

Flags that show people support LGBT rights.

It's like how people put out flags to show they support the Queen a few weeks ago :)

(And yes, both Pride and Jubilee events were also parties - so what?)

So you were flying them in the 70s and 80s? Back when my sister and I were getting bullied like hell because she is a lesbian? When to fly a pride flag actually means something?

Now it’s bloody Mardi Gras for straights, and the bullying is going the same flipping way.

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:46

The irony of my sister having a gaggle of lovely young (straight) women sitting in a gay bar hissing ‘dyke’ at her as she walked through the door is not exactly lost here…

antifascist · 02/07/2022 12:47

There appears a concerted effort to defend Nicholson and to condemn critics for having the gall to point out what she has said repeatedly about gay rights and the positions she has adopted in parliament.

What with other threads praising Jacob Rees-Mogg and Jordan Peterson I would suggest that if you consider these three individuals as people whose politics you admire that you are not particular concerned about the rights of women or gay people.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:49

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:45

So you were flying them in the 70s and 80s? Back when my sister and I were getting bullied like hell because she is a lesbian? When to fly a pride flag actually means something?

Now it’s bloody Mardi Gras for straights, and the bullying is going the same flipping way.

I wasn't alive in the 80s, so that would be a no.

Personally, I like that Pride is an event where you can bring your straight friends these days.

In fact, I think all straight parents should take their kids to a pride parades. It is a wonderful way to teach them about acceptance.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:50

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:46

The irony of my sister having a gaggle of lovely young (straight) women sitting in a gay bar hissing ‘dyke’ at her as she walked through the door is not exactly lost here…

There is clearly a difference between straight allies attending pride parades and straight people turning up to abuse LGBT people.

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:54

These were a group of young women sitting in a gay bar (used to be a lesbian bar). They chose to be there (loads of bars around there). It says it all - gal allie but not for women.

it’s all big business backed, and people (ok - mostly men) just dressing up, wiggling their backsides and taking cracks at women. Pride my arse.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:56

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 12:54

These were a group of young women sitting in a gay bar (used to be a lesbian bar). They chose to be there (loads of bars around there). It says it all - gal allie but not for women.

it’s all big business backed, and people (ok - mostly men) just dressing up, wiggling their backsides and taking cracks at women. Pride my arse.

We must be going to different pride parades then because the last one I was at was about 50/50 men/women.

Rainbow capitalism is an issue but it's not nearly as big an issue as the bigotry displayed by the noble Baroness.

KittenKong · 02/07/2022 13:07

I wonder how many of those were gay. It’s just a laugh and a day out for a lot these days.

Clymene · 02/07/2022 13:11

In fact, I think all straight parents should take their kids to a pride parades. It is a wonderful way to teach them about acceptance.

Adult babies and men in gimp masks and dressed as furries? Hard from me.

And please stop lecturing those of us who were there at Pride marches in the 80s and 90s @Hearach15. You're embarrassing yourself.

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 13:16

Clymene · 02/07/2022 13:11

In fact, I think all straight parents should take their kids to a pride parades. It is a wonderful way to teach them about acceptance.

Adult babies and men in gimp masks and dressed as furries? Hard from me.

And please stop lecturing those of us who were there at Pride marches in the 80s and 90s @Hearach15. You're embarrassing yourself.

Lots of parents take their kids to pride and they have a great time. Cheer up!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/07/2022 13:21

Hearach15 · 02/07/2022 12:27

Flags that show people support LGBT rights.

It's like how people put out flags to show they support the Queen a few weeks ago :)

(And yes, both Pride and Jubilee events were also parties - so what?)

The Jubilee flags that famous transwoman India Willoughby found oppressive and fascistic?

Baroness Nicholson on Regent Street flags