"Assigned at birth" - challenging it at school

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Has anyone successfully challenged the use of this terminology in a school? I teach science in a secondary school and I've just overheard a non-science teacher explaining to children in PSHE that biological sex is assigned at birth. I need to challenge it, but wondered if anyone has managed to get that particular terminology changed.

I was using “value” in its mathematical sense. Not the same thing as or related to making a value judgement. Really, it’s as if everyone on here has only learned the social science definitions of terms and has no concept of the scientific or mathematical definitions of terms.

Honestly, you’re relying on cut and paste pieces from a Wikipedia page on value judgements as a philosophical term but saying it’s not philosophy? And then trying to do amateur epistemology badly at us and claiming it’s not philosophy? Give over. 🤣 It’s school kid stuff to be throwing around rubbish from the internet and then claiming it’s not even what Wikipedia says it is. Come on!

Tell us more about your four children. What happened at their pregnancy scans? What happened at their births?

Really, it’s as if everyone on here has only learned the social science definitions of terms and has no concept of the scientific or mathematical definitions of terms.

"Value judgment" is not a mathematical term.

You just threw out the whole view of light as both a wave and a particle and turned it into a social construct where someone assigns various light elements (since it seems I can’t say waves or particles until some higher being ordains it so) with these attributes, thereby destroying entire fields of science

No I haven’t. That’s your mischaracterisation or misunderstanding of what I’m saying.

I never said it was. The prior poster did. They misread my use of “assigned a value of 2” to mean a “value judgement”.

It means something based on your own values, rather than on objective truth.

Saying that a white lie is morally wrong is a value judgement. Saying that a male child is male isn’t. It suggests a typical TRAs poor education and intellect to claim that it is.

You could possibly say that defining the frequency at which green becomes blue is similarly a value judgement, but saying that red light has a lower frequency than green is objective fact.

I was using “value” in its mathematical sense. Not the same thing as or related to making a value judgement. Really, it’s as if everyone on here has only learned the social science definitions of terms and has no concept of the scientific or mathematical definitions of terms.

You part quoted something that was not mathematical in basis. Something that is at odds with what you are now saying.

And mathematically there are more than 2 numbers... so what are you implying or ignoring there?

You are hopping and skipping from point to point. Just stop! You misunderstood. That's fine everyone does it.

Put down the shovel!

You’re lying, it’s not a Wikipedia page on value judgement as a philosophical term. It’s just a Wikipedia page on value judgement in general and it lists the different definitions and usages.

And so what if I cut and pasted a definition and usage I had been using, it proved I was using value judgement correctly and in context. Even though it is not the most common usage that the average reader such as yourself would be aware of.

The process is observation, and then based on the evidence, an assignment of the value of 2 is made. The result of this process is the officially recorded number 2.

You are essentially arguing that correctly identifying anything in the observable universe and recording it accurately is being “assigned” by the person doing the recording. Our whole reality is assigned, one way or another, by that logic.

So how do we differentiate between that definition of “assigned” for newborns, and the other reality based definition based on choice?

Can I assign a newborn to be male based on observation of reality, and also assign that newborn to be the youngest member of Wiggles Fan Club? Does the word mean the same here? That the baby has been observed to be a member of the Wiggles Fan Club, and a person has assigned the value of member, and as a result of this process has officially recorded it as such?

Thanks @FemmeNatal that's what i thought it meant. I just worded it badly!

No I did not “part quote” value judgement by using the term value in its mathematical sense.

A value is the result of a mathematical calculation or function.

Christ alive, value judgment is intrinsically a philosophical term, that’s the entire point, it was literally invented in ethical and moral philosophy. That’s what the Wikipedia page IS ABOUT. That’s the entire page. Please do stop digging now as Samphire says!

A value is the result of a mathematical calculation or function.

You aren't a mathematician, are you?

You see big shiny white disc in sky, so you DECIDE that is the moon.

It either is or isn't the moon, whatever you decide. Just like a male is still a male even their genitals appear ambiguous at birth and the doctor gets it wrong (extremely rare occurrence).

No I did not “part quote” value judgement by using the term value in its mathematical sense.

I didn't say you did. That is 2 different concepts, you introduced then separately, I replied to them separately. Here is the first time they have been conflated.

The wiki quote was not about maths and was incomplete, see full quote above.

THEN you said you were using it mathematically

A value is the result of a mathematical calculation or function. Erm, sucking eggs now!

As I said, sex is binary, an either or. So 'value 2', and any other value in use, needs to be defined or you are opening up a whole new can of worms that could be seen as you likening it to all those myriad genders!

As I said, language, a beautiful thing. To be wielded carefully!

You are essentially arguing that correctly identifying anything in the observable universe and recording it accurately is being “assigned” by the person doing the recording.

No, they are all separate actions. And you have it all out of order. Plus it doesn’t have to be correct, it can be incorrect.

You observe
You assign or deduce as a pp put it
You record

These steps can all be done by the same person, or by different persons. The person doing the observing doesn’t have to be the person assigning who doesn’t have to be the person recording.

Can I assign a perfectly typical biological female baby to actually be a biological male at birth? If not, why?

I disagree that it is only a philosophical term. It is used outside of philosophy. Even Wikipedia shows my usage being used in the military as a term describing strategic decisions. Hardly only philosophy if it’s being used in military operations.

No, they are all separate actions. And you have it all out of order. Plus it doesn’t have to be correct, it can be incorrect.

So, if it was done incorrectly, your sex isn't assigned at birth, your sex is what it always was.

Well, if you make the observation Erish I'll make the notation and we will see if anyone deduces that either of us incorrectly assigned something!

I know I said I wouldn’t provide a reading list, but by god I feel I have to. I recommend these @Discovereads as an excellent proper introduction to the issues you’re trying to think around:
Michael Williams, Problems of Knowledge: A Critical Introduction to Epistemology - expensive U.K. get hold of if you aren’t near a university library, but very good

Jennifer Nagel, Knowledge: A Very Short Introduction (short but clear and affordable - in fact all the short introduction series are pretty good, try the ones on Objectivity, Scepticism, and the Sexuality one by Veronique Mottier)

Robert M Martin, Epistemology: A Beginner’s Guide - less comprehensive but easier to get hold of

Correct. But you still have a thought process whereby you decide that what you are observing looks enough like the moon that you think it is the moon.

Even Wikipedia shows my usage being used in the military as a term describing strategic decisions. Hardly only philosophy if it’s being used in military operations.

Yes, the advisability of a military strike - will include the rights and wrongs of geography and morality!

And is something you didn't include in your truncated quote, which removed the moral, social, military 'value' part of the judgement being made!

Not by profession although there were quite a few course modules in mathematics for my degrees.

Sex is DETERMINED, not assigned. The correct vocabulary is imperative to ensure theres no room for manipulating the truth. That’s why ‘assigned’ is being pushed - it implies that its an arbitrary choice based purely on visuals, and that if thats the case, then when it’s linked with ‘gender’, its only a small step to ‘gender is assigned but sometimes people incorrectly assign it’.