What you all said was coming

[Pippinbird]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10947483/Anguish-young-man-sex-organs-removed-NHS-regretted-day-SUES-NHS

But presumably your husband isn't in a 'mentally unwell, obsessive state', as this man described himself at the time he sought gender treatment?

Yep!

It is as inconceivable for him not to have thought about it a it was for Keira Bell. But women here lept to support her. Women here understood her pain, her confusion, her anger and didn't try to talk it away.

Why this young man went through are the same systemic failings, the same fears, the same psychological disturbance and the same physical failings. None of which are lesser because he is make and, for some reason, some here hold him to a higher standard of self care and knowledge!

Shit like this is what gives those who mock MN FWR good reason!

People suggesting NHS is affirmative only care are dead wrong. Anyone going through that system is assessed and challenged by psychs over a number of years. Two separate psychs have to agree a person is able to consent and psychologically fit for surgery.

Really? Where is that clear on the Indigo website which for genital surgery says:

”For genital or ‘bottom’ surgery we are unable to refer you directly as this requires two letters of recommendation. However, we can provide one letter and the Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health is able to provide the other after an assessment with them. This can be done remotely and you do not need to necessarily travel to Nottingham for this. This process is in line with current national guidelines around surgical referrals.”

indigogenderservice.uk/our-services/services-we-offer/surgeries

Indigo makes it clear how straightforward their letter of recommendation is and for the one via Nottingham Centre you don’t even need to be seen in person to get their letter.

People really should have a good look at Indigo and understand the model for gender affirming healthcare.

I don't know, they did take his penis and testicles off. How does this operation exist for non medical reasons in the first place? How does someone who has autism, with mental health issues, end up on the table? What is the path they followed to get there, when the NHS are the ones who are actually qualified and experienced and shouldn't be removing people's genitals for non-medical reasons.

I used to know two people who went through with this, my understanding was a psychiatrist had to agree before they could get the operation. Maybe it has been made easier and more likely that people can get inappropriate surgery. The two people I knew were very different, one a well respected professional and I think everyone was surprised the other had a quite chaotic lifestyle and people had generally felt it was likely to happen.

It must be very difficult to deal with for everyone concerned.

Sorry I'm not going to discuss that on here.

That seems a very.... hands-off approach, not at all what I'd envisaged from mishy's description.

I watched a documentary called What is a Woman? this week. It makes me think this man has a legitimate case. The reason for this is that all trans surgery is experimental, with no baseline level of care. This means the surgery can differ and there is no standardised quality control. The recipient of the treatment signs a disclaimer. However, in this country disclaimers cannot protect a provider of a service from gross negligence that causes death or serious harm.

Gender affirmation inherently promotes the route to surgery, instead of supporting someone in unpicking their dysphoria and seeing whether they can come to terms with their biological reality. They are then not told about the myriad of harms that are frequent results of this treatment. For example, someone who undergoes these treatments is not only left infertile, but is also left unable to have a satisfying sexual relationship. They often have serious problems with normal bodily functions like going to the loo, chronic pain, scarring, repeated infections that become resistant to antibiotics and can be a death sentence, a statistically increased risk of suicide after surgery and much more. In short, many people who undergo this sort of surgery will live shorter lives because of it. All of the above is surely negligent.

I think its a horrific situation that should never have been allowed to occur.

The NHS does deserve to be sued.

Unfortunately big changes are needed to avoid terrible mistakes in future and polite letters are not going to cut it.

As a pp said, money talks.

Bloke bitterly regrets penile removal. Colour me shocked. I'm being flippant but really, how did we as a society get this dumb? Props to him for his bravery in spekaing out. I noted the TRA Katie Montgomery was quick to jump on him and basically dogpile him for speaking out and suggest he was imagining his pain.

the trans surgeries subreddits are full of young people posting their despair and frustration that transition has worked out badly for them. Their posts are either removed, acuused of transphobia or they are gaslit that there's nothing wrong with their surgical results and that their pain isn't real.

Until the denail stops, nothing will change. However - if the NHS is henceforth less cavalier about using my taxes to transition mentally ill young people, then that's a win imho.

My son escaped being in this man’s situation by the skin of his teeth. We were extremely lucky to get a therapist who had just started at GIDS (in fact we were his first appointment) and who helped my son to examine why he felt like he was trans. We had appointments for about 18 months, one every 6 weeks or so.

We had our last appointment at GIDS in February 2020, and this was also one of the therapists last sessions, he left to go elsewhere. At the last appointment, as my son was over 18, he was referred onto adult GIDS where he would have been instantly affirmed, given hormones and put on the waiting list for surgery.

Luckily for us lockdown happened shortly after this appointment. My son got a full time job and entered the real world, not the world of tumblr and friends telling him how brave and wonderful he was for being trans.

2 years later he is so fucking grateful that he had that thinking time to realise that it was a phase. If that therapist hadn’t slowed things down, and then if lockdown hadn’t happened, I can guarantee my son would be at the very least on hormones, and maybe he would be castrated and having to dilate a canal where his penis had once been.

I believe that my son was at the tail end of the sensible ‘watchful waiting’ approach. So @MishyJDI, I strongly believe that a wave of regretful transitioners are coming. The only reason that there haven’t been many public ones yet is simply a matter of numbers. All these regretful ‘trans peeps’ as you call them are coming, and my heart bleeds for every single one of them.

But the surgeon shouldn't have done it. What happened to "first do not harm"? This was a mentally ill patient who didn't properly understand the outcome of what he wanted...no surgeon should have performed the surgery.

But because of the culture of being unable to ever question anything due to being labelled transphobic, they will.

Surgery regret however is extremely low for trans people, And yet we know that there is daily more and more evidence that this is no longer the case.

Now younger people are somehow accessing such surgery regrets are increasing. When it took years and a lot of medical input men got a lot more information, counselling, discussion. That does not, cannot happen as much any more and the NHS, for some reason, actually funds such surgery.

This will only increase if Stonewall et al push through their version of 'no conversion therapy'

The NHS mutilated and sterilsed him. How he is not a victim of the NHS?

Given how stonewalled and aggressively activist the NHS has become on trans matters I would be hanging fire on assuming consent protocol was followed as deeply as we might otherwise expect in this case. I'd be interested to see the evidence before deciding what's right or wrong.

I have the utmost sympathy for TulipR.

Imagine the scenario that you are deeply mentally unwell, severely dysphoric, in a group that only enforces your worst and hardest thoughts. Then, instead of therapy you get medicalised. You're on hormones that wreak havoc with your system and emotional state, the. You're told surgery might help. Say a doc wants to make a name for them self as a specialist in this area and so, follows protocol, but perhaps not as deeply as they might otherwise. They don't want to be deemed transphobic, they want the opportunity, they feel for the patient. Remember, surgeons are human and not infallible too.

I'm not saying that happened. I don't know. But that's a different story to a person fully in control and capable of understanding the deep challenges the surgery would bring being taken step by step through a consent process by a wary and cautious doctor.

There's any number of possible variations and the solicitors must feel like there's a strong chance of success if they've taken it on CFA.

It’s how he describes it now, as he’s preparing to sue the NHS.

To quote Mandy Rice-Davis, well he would say that wouldn’t he?

And let’s face it, how many detransitioners are going to come out and say, ‘yep, I made a massive mistake and cut off perfectly fine working parts of my body for what I now realise was a phase’.

On this thread we have had people (trans allies and gender critical alike) calling this man stupid. How many people are going to willingly put themselves through public mockery? For every one public detransitioner you can bet there are at least 5 more who keep it quiet.

I don’t understand how he agreed to surgery without researching first? He must have known that he was going to have his man bits removed?

I know someone who has recently had the surgery, they went private because the process wit the NHS takes years, it’s not something they rush and the explain the procedure and offer counselling before surgery. The person I know was older and it was something they had thought through for a long time. They don’t regret their choice and they are so much happier.

I do think there will be many young men that do regret going through with it and I don’t think it should be something men rush into, it’s major life changing surgery that comes within huge risks. It is worrying that there are so many young people confused about their gender and sexuality, it does seem to be a bit of a fad with young people. Dd has several friends that’s are trans or gender neutral, it’s talked about much more than it was 20 years ago and it’s almost like the idea has been put into children's heads and made ‘trendy’ to be different, social media doesn’t help. It just wasn’t really talked about much when I was at high school but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Several of my class mates have come out as trans in their 30’s.

So how do the NHS make sure they are doing the right thing? Do the put a age on when surgery can take place? And if so will suicide and depression rise in those who are turned down for surgery that they desperately feel they need?

This man knew exactly what surgery he was having, it would have been explained to him many times, how can you sign up for gender reassignment and not realise they are going to take your testicles?

Rise💐

I also have a relative that would have been caught up in this (if they were born a few years later). Luckily they’re in a same sex relationship and healthy the thriving. They have been shamefully silenced on this.

I don’t understand how he agreed to surgery without researching first?

Fear. Confusion. Body dysmorphia. Lack of detail from medical professionals.

All in the article!

He should take some responsibility, as it should have been obvious that there wouldn’t be the same feelings down there and it would result in infertility, but at the same time, was the op supposed to result in taking 10 minutes to pee and it then dribbling out for the next hour? Sounds like the surgery went a bit wrong.

This.

It's not like you can ever get your penis or breasts back, and if you publicly admit that you regret it you'll have to deal with people asking how you could have been so stupid, so you'd just try and make the best of it, wouldn't you?

Jesus wept!

I find this leaflet absolutely terrifying. Yes, there's one page which lists the potential risks, although it gives no information on how common they are. For example, rather than just stating 'incontinence', it really needs to say 'this percentage of people will have permanent incontinence after surgery'. Someone might feel very differently about surgery if there's a one in a thousand risk than if half the people having surgery end up incontinent.

And if we don't know that number then, firstly, we really should be doing that research, and, secondly, the information should be clear that the level of risk is unknown.

The rest of the leaflet is page after page of how the surgeons will 'create your clitoris' and 'create your labia minora'. It is very upbeat. I can well understand how, after reading that, someone might feel, as was said upthread, that the end result would be indistinguishable from the real thing.

I have huge sympathy for Tulip. Yes, he agreed, but it doesn't sound like he was given - or at least understood - the likely realistic outcome. I am increasingly thinking that outcomes for this particular surgery are so poor that it simply should not be offered. Yes, give therapy. Yes, support social transition. Yes to hormones and 'top surgery'. But no to procedures which carry a high risk of leaving young people in nappies for life.

I fear that this is the first wave of a tsunami...