J Lo’s daughter

[Dinosaurhearmeroar]

www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a40340238/jennifer-lopez-emme-sing-duet-they-them-pronouns/

not sure if my you’ve seen this yet - at first I thought it was being misreported because she was introduced as a special guest so I thought the use of “they” was deliberately ambiguous. Got it wrong!

lots of plaudits for j lo today for supporting her daughter. I feel torn about it - I highly doubt j Lo has any clue about any of the topics on this thread etc so is just being a supportive parent, arguably.

I suppose this is all part of a bigger question I have about using pronouns really. I’ve looked at filia’s guidance and legal feminist about this and totally agree with it, but I know there are lots of gender critical feminists who will use someone’s preferred pronouns out of politeness etc.

bit of a ramble - but would love to know where people stand on this issue and if you have refused to use someone’s pronouns when asked how they responded.

x

Thats easy to say when its not your kid.

Where did I say that they were?

I’m sure you would, but We shouldn’t be putting extra barriers in the way of people who already experience considerable disadvantage in accessing education, employment and social life.

Probably not, but we also shouldn't intentionally describe trans people by the wrong gender, and yet people do, purely to be cruel as far as I can tell.

But I don’t believe in gender so sex based pronouns are the only ones I could use without it going against my beliefs.

That seems a strange point to raise in the context of a conversation about people whose impairments make coping with pronouns difficult. Do you think people with autism are being « cruel » when they do not get this « right »?

And are you aware that disability is, in English law, a protected characteristic; and that gender identity is not?

@aweegc

Non binary does NOT necessarily mean transgender.

Others equate being nonbinary with being transgender, i.e. identifying with a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth. Are nonbinary people trans? Some nonbinary people feel this definition applies to them, but others don’t.

I wouldn't add non native speakers here, even though I've seen them mentioned often in these discussions.
To them it wouldn't be any different than accepting that in English 'you' can be relating to one person or many.
And also these changes are happening in their native languages too, so not sure why people think it would be in anyway confusing.

I see it as more like someone tells you that theyre 25 when they're clearly about 40, or someone or someone tells you they're 18 when they look about 15. In most circumstsnces I would think they are eithet deluded or deliberately lying, but I wouldn't bother to challenge it. But in some circumstances it would matter that they aren't what they say they are so I would need to challenge it, e.g. sorry you're too young to enter this nightclub/too old to receive the reduced rate of membership fees.

Calling someone by a different name is no big deal, but calling a male by female pronouns suggests you acknowledge them as a woman. We can't choose our pronouns any more than we can choose our age

I think really the point I was trying to make is while it doesn’t matter for those that communicate with ease, it really DOES impact those that don’t. so while I get you hadn’t appreciated the difficulty you might be causing, now you do, suggesting further impairing an already disabled person because you can’t be bothered to use names instead of inaccurate pronouns to me is far more unempathetic than using conventional sex linked pronouns.

To them it wouldn't be any different than accepting that in English 'you' can be relating to one person or many.
you’re assuming that those speaking English as a second, third, or fourth (or more) language are learning it rather than have been speaking it for a while.

I’m dealing with the same professional issue, albeit in a mixed school - 95% of those transing are FTM, mostly ‘he’ pronouns requested, with a couple of ‘theys’ and some who use ‘he’/ ‘they’. Some parents are not onboard with the name / pronoun changes; most are because the students are 16+ and will do what they want to and are not as influenced by parents.

I am GC but will use preferred names and pronouns. However, it is a source of personal conflict for me and something I think about a lot. I’m very concerned at the number of transing girls with MH issues who are also neurodiverse and how this has snowballed in the last two years , in particular.

Slightly off topic but I feel bad for celebrities' children in particular going through this, as, if they do abandon their 'new' gender identify at some stage people are never going to accept it.

e.g. Brad Pitt and Angelina's daughter, Shiloh. Complete randoms who have never met her "transed" her from the age of 5 onwards, without her or her family ever confirming anything other than her liking to wear boys clothes for a few years as a pre-teen, to the point where they hurled abuse at anyone calling her by her given name, as dead-naming her because her name was actually John (a nn she went by when she was about 8 that Angelina mentioned once in one interview!). Despite the fact that her actual family never stopped calling her Shiloh or suggested that she identified as anything other than a girl who liked having short hair and being "one of the boys" (unsurprising given she has 3 brothers). Now she's 15 and dressing in a typically feminine way again there are hundreds of clickbaity articles discussing her gender identity....again all based on NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE other than a pre-teen appearing to be a bit of a tomboy for a few years, like millions of other girls.

late

Slightly off topic but I feel bad for celebrities' children in particular going through this, as, if they do abandon their 'new' gender identify at some stage people are never going to accept it.

Yep, R. Kelly's daughter has had trouble with that.

R. Kelly’s Child, Jaah, Went Public as Trans. Now 18 Explains She Was a Lesbian

I see it as someone telling you their name is say Sarah and you be like "no, I'm not calling you that, I' m going to call you Julie instead. Then keep calling them it even though they have told you it's not. You'd find them rude and a bit weird, would you not?

Nonsense. We are all entitled to our own names. We aren't entitled to our own special grammatical rules, just as we're not entitled to give words a new definition and demand that the rest of the world stop using the standard definition.

Is the child a murderous clown?

we also shouldn't intentionally describe trans people by the wrong gender, and yet people do, purely to be cruel as far as I can tell.

No. People use correct-sex pronouns because they don't believe in gender ideology and/or because they refuse to lie.

100% agree. My son has very little understanding of language and this would confuse the hell out of him. I hadn’t really thought of it before! but yes the years spent teaching he and she, girl and boy. He’s mid twenties now and i still don’t think he really gets it.

As a linguist, this is the thing that I cannot get out of my mind.

Great and succint way of putting it - you are not entitled to personal grammar.

Honestly, all I see when I see these 'non-binary' girls are young females who have seen a brilliant way to try and escape sexaulisation and be able to carve out an identity that is something other than just 'sex object for the male gaze'.

Are we honestly supposed to believe that all these girls are actually 'trans' in some way?

It was awful what they did to Shiloh Jolie-Pitt, how bloody dare they!

She is on YouTube at the moment putting out fabulous videos of her dancing

This sounds like a great approach, and I think will become more common

What do you mean you don't believe in gender? 🤔
Gender is a social construct, we made it up, but it's obviously a 'thing' .. It's not something to believe in or not, surely?

I don't think that biological sex can be changed, but someone living as a different gender is perfectly viable, in my opinion 🤷🏻‍♀️

I personally hate the stereotypes of gender, they're ridiculous. And I can't imagine transgender would ever be a thing if we didn't have such rigid gender ideas (I know a lot of people disagree with that, and I respect that, but this is how I feel).

Yes but.. Why? I hate religion, I'm not going to tell a Christian God doesn't exist. Because it's cruel and unnecessary. You don't have to agree with transgender stuff, but you can still be a decent human and be kind, surely?

I have HUGE issues with the whole transgender situation at the moment, I don't believe for a second that 90% of these kids will remain transgender. But I still manage to be nice to them and call them whatever they want.

If someone wanted to be referred to as Mr Banana Face, I'd do it.. Raised eyebrow, sure, but it's easy for me and stops their feelings being hurt 🤷🏻‍♀️