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Guardian article about Kate Clanchy "The book that tore publishing apart: ‘Harm has been done, and now everyone’s afraid’"

1000 replies

miri1985 · 18/06/2022 17:50

www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/18/the-book-that-tore-publishing-apart-harm-has-been-done-and-now-everyones-afraid

Interesting article but Sarah Ditum said it on twitter better than I could "I think it's a major flaw that this article broadly assumes good faith on the part of cancel-culture agitators. A lot of them are perfectly self-interested and borderline sociopathic" twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1538144622643494912?cxt=HHwWgIC-3dCYy9gqAAAA

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Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:13

@RoseLunarPink I think the excerpt that Biscuit posted shows that there is reflection and thought change within the narrative. To my mind, that's not incompatible with Kate freaking out about the review and behaving badly - especially given the bereavement. I'm not saying she was wise or right to engage, clearly she wasn't, but I would give the same leeway to others who acted rashly and unkindly under similar emotional strain. For me at least, failing to bring reflection to bear at that time doesn't mean she is unreflective as a teacher, or otherwise.

Floisme · 22/06/2022 14:15

I just don't see how this is logical, and usually you make a lot of sense to me, so I don't see what I'm missing here.

Yes, it seems like KC herself unwittingly set this off, and so she is the origin, and her initial action was not well thought out and I think inappropriate and unkind.

None of that impacts whether or not subsequenct critisisms of her book are well founded or has much at all to do with how those kinds of critisisms affect publishing more generally. It's entirely possible to think she was unwide/wrong to engage in the first place without therefore thinking arguments that her book is racist and should be withdrawn are correct.

Well thank you! The thing is I'm not, as I've said, commenting on the book or its language or content. I've not read it so have stayed out of that side of the discussion and have no intention of joining in.
Because I hadn't read it, I didn't join in the original discussion and have only done so now after reading the Guardian article plus posts about Clancy's behaviour towards her reviewer. This is where my focus lies. I'm losing the will to live repeating myself so my apologies to anyone getting bored, but I'll try again:
I don't see what Clanchy did as 'inappropriate'. I regard it as an attempt to censor someone - an amateur reviewer - for saying things she (Clanchy) did not like. Not just unkind or unwise, a totally unacceptable attitude in my view, especially from a writer.

If we can claim any author who is an ass must accept any criticism of his book we are in for a lot of withdrawn books.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'accept' As far as I can see, all Clanchy had to accept was the principle that the reviewer was entitled to state her opinion. And ironically, had she done so and left her critic alone to speak her mind freely, it seems unlikely that any of this would have happened.

WeeBisom · 22/06/2022 14:17

I’ve read this thread with interest, and I wonder if part of the outrage comes from the taboo that a teacher just isn’t supposed to sneer at or mock ugly and stupid kids. It’s a bit shocking when a teacher is cruel about a child being fat, having a moustache etc. She says she found the autistic children “jarring” and made a joke about how they would do any task, no matter how dull, for hours. I can see how anyone would be mad if they found out their teacher had unsavoury thoughts towards their kids, but the reality is that teachers do. My impression from this discussion is Clanchy is not a very nice person (she even admits on Twitter she is not good). She’s a snob, she’s mean. And the undercurrent to this seems to be that nasty people shouldn’t be teaching, and certainly shouldn’t be writing about their experiences.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:19

Surely you'd make it clearer by saying "I admit I thought things like XYZ at first" and explain why?

But she's a poet, writing a literary memoir. She is going to try to draw the reader in to experience her perspective. She is deliberately making it visceral and vivid, because she is trying to involve the reader. That way, when her perspective changes, the reader is changing their perspective alongside her. I don't think it's really fair to say she should have written the book in a different way than she did. It's fair to say you don't like it or don't want to read it, of course.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:21

And the undercurrent to this seems to be that nasty people shouldn’t be teaching, and certainly shouldn’t be writing about their experiences.

Not just a teacher, but a woman, too. #bekind

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 14:24

As a PP has said, of course teachers must have those thoughts. And I can even understand them saying them, in private. But not saying them to the kids or parents or putting them in a book! I don't think having the thoughts makes her a bad person - you can't control what pops into your head, though it's also good to question and challenge your assumptions of course. But putting them in a non-fiction book is a whole different ball game. I can't believe anyone really thinks that thinking them makes doing that inherently OK?

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:25

I don't see what Clanchy did as 'inappropriate'. I regard it as an attempt to censor someone - an amateur reviewer - for saying things she (Clanchy) did not like.

I would agree with you, except she apparently didn't do the things she's accused of doing, such as reporting the reviewer to her employer. She did respond to the review and tweeted about it, which I agree was bad form. I also agree with you that if she had just ignored the review, probably none of this would have happened.

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 14:27

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 13:59

To me your charachterization of the comments is so far out that I find it hard to even think you are serious. I'm not saying you are not serious, but to me it's like someone who is saying "He cut the cheese" is deeply offensive, it just doesn't compute.

It's funny because I'm having the same flabbergasted response to people who claim they aren't offensive. It's not that describing someone as e.g. curvy is always, in itself, prurient or . It's the way the unnecessary, sometimes verging on leery, raking over of physical features and body parts, often linking them to race and often very very personal, goes on throughout the book, the tone and the way it makes her come across as superior, patrician and disrespectful.

Yes I was shocked, genuinely – not as in me personally needing the smelling salts, I'm fairly unshockable – but that a publisher had let that stuff through in a memoir/NF work about vulnerable kids of a variety of ethnicities. I've flagged up many potentially racist, sexist and otherwise offensive usages in books that I've found less shocking, so I would expect someone to have done the same here. And it's not about cancellation or restriction in my experience - it's often about saying to the author, are you aware how this comes across, I'd suggest making it less open to accusations of racism. They often just haven't realised. Or a designer/artist hasn't realised that they've depicted all white people and all in sexist roles. I do think those things should be considered - I don't think that's some kind of horrendous shutting down of freedoms.

It's clear to me that this whole incident has highlighted a massive gulf between the way different people see things like this, which is an education for me.

And I do take on board that maybe I am oversensitive because I work in publishing. As I said I'm still thinking about it.

I do think there is an increasing gulf developing with this stuff. But I tend to think it's actually quite a bad thing and will ultimately feed into really 19th century kinds of racial attitudes. That's not the intent obviously, but I think it will be the effect.

There was a thread a few days ago with a woman who was quite shocked at something referencing racial appearance a colleague said at a work training of event. He was not British and felt that what he'd said was something pretty normal among all races where he lived.

She was quite right that to hear it in the UK, or the US for that matter, would have been quite surprising and you'd wonder, who would say that? But what she and a lot of other people in the discussion didn't quite seem to understand is that in a lot of other places, including Africa where this man was from, people are much more likely to make open comments about physical charachteristics we'd think of as "racialized". The idea that any such description, even if completely without malice, is racist, is culturally specific and not universal. And if you get as far as trying to argue the logic of that (most people won't try) it's actually not obvious or an easy argument to make.

My own view is that while it's understandable that certain phrases that have been used in the past feel very othering to some, and may be best avoided, the idea that we must avoid all references to any physical charachteristics that reference ethnicity, is unwise and maybe even dangerous. It creates taboos that increase racial sensitivity, it implies that there is something negative about physical charachteristics that are common to some groups, and also asks people to pretend such things don't exist when most people are quite aware that they do. What's more it wants us to pretend that noticing such things leads to racism, and only bad people would notce such things.

Those kinds of pretending can only have negative consequences in the long run, especially when it's to the point that we are avoiding them in literary texts.

It reminds me of something I read in John McWhorter's book, Nine Naughty Words, which is about swearing. He pointed out that we no longer really mind about swear words that are religious in origin, and often even about the scatalogical ones. These offend against the orthodoxies of bygone ages. Instead the swear words that really sting our ears are the ones that offend against our feelings about groups and identities and race. But I think we can make very much the same arguments about clearing out the latter from literature as the former. Sure, a book litered with blasphemy and wearing might fail as literature because it's stupid or badly written. But that doesn't mean all literature that has blasphemy or the word "fuck" is not worth publishing or writing. Simiarly with our current sensitivities.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:27

I think almost everyone agrees Kate should've ignored the bad review.

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 14:28

Look I have the same deep objections to "be kind" and its sexist usage as anyone, especially any GC feminist. But of course teachers should be kind - or more accurately respectful - when writing about their RL students! I can't believe that's in doubt! If a teacher wrote a memoir about the struggles of teaching in a failing inner-city school, do you think that would excuse writing in leery and/or grossed-out-sounding detail about the kids bodies, mouths, boobs etc? I reckon such a writer would also be taken to task and especially if male.

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 14:31

All this about her being "not a good person", "not very nice"... Compared to who? She is someone who has dedicated years of her life to bringing out the talents of vulnerable and traumatised children. She takes an interest in the world and society around her. As far as we know, she is a law-abiding honest citizen. These things alone are more than can be said for a lot of people. She might be insensitive, rash, and otherwise imperfect. I prefer a world of intellectually engaged people who contribute to society, than a bland world of people who have never said anything objectionable because they have never said anything at all. Particularly in the arts.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:34

But not saying them to the kids or parents or putting them in a book!

Completely with you on not saying these things to the kids or parents. That would be despicable. But I think writing them in a book is completely different. They're her thoughts, perceptions and experiences, and I believe she has every right to write about them however she likes. As a pp mentioned, this is always a bit of an issue with memoir, and even with fiction sometimes, because an individual's feelings can be hurt. However, in this case, there was quite a bit of protection for the individuals involved. Firstly, KC wrote about composite characters, based on combining attributes of several different students. Secondly, the students in question were all adults by the time the book was written. Thirdly, the students were aware of and supported the book, and were proud of their association with KC.

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 14:34

Floisme · 22/06/2022 14:15

I just don't see how this is logical, and usually you make a lot of sense to me, so I don't see what I'm missing here.

Yes, it seems like KC herself unwittingly set this off, and so she is the origin, and her initial action was not well thought out and I think inappropriate and unkind.

None of that impacts whether or not subsequenct critisisms of her book are well founded or has much at all to do with how those kinds of critisisms affect publishing more generally. It's entirely possible to think she was unwide/wrong to engage in the first place without therefore thinking arguments that her book is racist and should be withdrawn are correct.

Well thank you! The thing is I'm not, as I've said, commenting on the book or its language or content. I've not read it so have stayed out of that side of the discussion and have no intention of joining in.
Because I hadn't read it, I didn't join in the original discussion and have only done so now after reading the Guardian article plus posts about Clancy's behaviour towards her reviewer. This is where my focus lies. I'm losing the will to live repeating myself so my apologies to anyone getting bored, but I'll try again:
I don't see what Clanchy did as 'inappropriate'. I regard it as an attempt to censor someone - an amateur reviewer - for saying things she (Clanchy) did not like. Not just unkind or unwise, a totally unacceptable attitude in my view, especially from a writer.

If we can claim any author who is an ass must accept any criticism of his book we are in for a lot of withdrawn books.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'accept' As far as I can see, all Clanchy had to accept was the principle that the reviewer was entitled to state her opinion. And ironically, had she done so and left her critic alone to speak her mind freely, it seems unlikely that any of this would have happened.

Right. Well in effect, yes, but I suppose I think that she didn't think it through to that extent and saw it more as a social media interaction. I don't really think of Goodreads as a source of reviews in the sense that I think of a newspaper review, to me its where people go to talk about books. It's Facebook for books.

Maybe a distinction without a difference but it will tend to affect how people engage.

WeeBisom · 22/06/2022 14:36

There’s a real dissonance when a self-admitted “not very good person” goes into a selfless job where one is supposed to be kind, and then writes about her pupils in a nasty way. So she’s being taken to task for being horrible when she shouldn’t have been. Teachers just aren’t supposed to write mean things about their students. I wonder why the book did so well. Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

On the other hand, didn’t some bloke write a book about his experiences as a junior doctor on the maternity unit ? And he had some horrible things to say about women and was rewarded with a U.K. wide live tour and a tv show. I guess the bigger question is should people in professions write in less than salutary ways about the people they care for ? To me it’s an interesting question, especially because teachers and doctors are coming home at night and complaining / joking about the people they look after.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:37

I prefer a world of intellectually engaged people who contribute to society, than a bland world of people who have never said anything objectionable because they have never said anything at all.

Me too. Even if those engaged people are sometimes cruel, sometimes stupid, sometimes ridiculous, sometimes pathetic. We (as a society) used to understand this about artists - that they can be awful, selfish, stupid, destructive and so on, but we tolerate it because we value their art.

WeeBisom · 22/06/2022 14:39

Also, when I say she’s not a good / nice person , these are things the author has admitted herself. But I thought this was the selling point of the entire book: a privileged woman who isn’t the perfect miss honey type encounters pupils from an entirely different background and they all learn and grow together and so on.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:42

WeeBisom · 22/06/2022 14:36

There’s a real dissonance when a self-admitted “not very good person” goes into a selfless job where one is supposed to be kind, and then writes about her pupils in a nasty way. So she’s being taken to task for being horrible when she shouldn’t have been. Teachers just aren’t supposed to write mean things about their students. I wonder why the book did so well. Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

On the other hand, didn’t some bloke write a book about his experiences as a junior doctor on the maternity unit ? And he had some horrible things to say about women and was rewarded with a U.K. wide live tour and a tv show. I guess the bigger question is should people in professions write in less than salutary ways about the people they care for ? To me it’s an interesting question, especially because teachers and doctors are coming home at night and complaining / joking about the people they look after.

She is being taken to task at exhaustive length for a tiny number of comments which some people feel are excessively mean. They aren't pleasant remarks, but some are being (in my opinion) over interpreted as mean where they could be read as observational.

She does not have a generally nasty attitude towards her students. Far from it, in fact. It's a real shame that the (imo, malicious - and I don't mean people on this thread, I'm referring to Twitter) focus on these few quotations is making people question her as a teacher overall.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:42

I'm not sure that teaching is a "a selfless job where one is supposed to be kind". I didn't go into teaching because I'm selfless or particularly kind. I don't consider those values to be essential to me doing a good job and in fact, those values are sometimes detrimental to being effective as a teacher. I guess this is part of the problem, that people think teaching is about being kind rather than about imparting knowledge and skills and encouraging the development of confidence and openness. To be honest, the main reason I wasn't interested in this book originally was because of the title - "Some kids I taught and what they taught me" - I thought it was going to be a big yawn about how teachers learn more from their students than vice versa, a sentiment I couldn't disagree with more.

Floisme · 22/06/2022 14:46

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:25

I don't see what Clanchy did as 'inappropriate'. I regard it as an attempt to censor someone - an amateur reviewer - for saying things she (Clanchy) did not like.

I would agree with you, except she apparently didn't do the things she's accused of doing, such as reporting the reviewer to her employer. She did respond to the review and tweeted about it, which I agree was bad form. I also agree with you that if she had just ignored the review, probably none of this would have happened.

What I read was that she threatened to report the reviewer, not that she actually did so or tried to. But ok.

The sticking point for me is, so much of this thread is about condemning censorship. And I agree. And yet we also seem to be dancing around - or waving away as 'bad judgement' or 'unkind' or 'bad form' or whatever - the fact that the original censor was Clanchy herself. I can't get past that.

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 14:50

Did she not say she wanted to report the review on the grounds of it being false? I appreciate she was mostly wrong about that, but I do believe that at the time she genuinely thought she had been misquoted. I would also ask a website to take down content that I believed was libelling me.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 14:51

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:45

I don't even think her writing is all that great in terms of ultimate literary effect, but the idea that it is "prurient" seems completely bizarre. We have full sized ads in shopping complexes with young teens in their knickers selling bras, noticing a girl is curvy is just a physical description.

Talking about children's breasts, mouths and legs - using highly sexualised language - is absolutely prurient.

I don't know why KC's defenders are so determined to twist the facts and deny what KC actually said.

It is prurient. I'm astonished at the apologists here.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 14:54

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 14:50

Did she not say she wanted to report the review on the grounds of it being false? I appreciate she was mostly wrong about that, but I do believe that at the time she genuinely thought she had been misquoted. I would also ask a website to take down content that I believed was libelling me.

It would be absolutely bonkers if, under her real name, she lied and then doubled down like that, so presumably she's telling the truth and the anonymous reviewer did edit it retroactively. But there are people all through this thread insisting she lied!

She claimed the review was false because the quotes were made up. The quotes weren't made up.

Clanchy helpfully took a screenshot of the review so everyone can see all of the quotes bar, Jewish for Ashkenazi , were genuine.

Floisme · 22/06/2022 14:56

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 14:50

Did she not say she wanted to report the review on the grounds of it being false? I appreciate she was mostly wrong about that, but I do believe that at the time she genuinely thought she had been misquoted. I would also ask a website to take down content that I believed was libelling me.

In that case, 'Ah sorry, my mistake' would have been the appropriate response once Clanchy realised her error. And yes I know (because it's been discussed somewhere upthread) that Clanchy has apologised many times in general terms, but I've yet to see her acknowledge this.

achillestoes · 22/06/2022 14:56

I don’t think teachers need to be kind. I’m happy for them to be neutral or even unkind, provided they can keep that side of themselves private. They should generally be perceived as acting in their students’ best interests.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:57

@TheLassWiADelicateAir You're not engaging with the many rebuttals. It isn't convincing simply to repeat yourself. Hmm

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