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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Guardian article about Kate Clanchy "The book that tore publishing apart: ‘Harm has been done, and now everyone’s afraid’"

1000 replies

miri1985 · 18/06/2022 17:50

www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/18/the-book-that-tore-publishing-apart-harm-has-been-done-and-now-everyones-afraid

Interesting article but Sarah Ditum said it on twitter better than I could "I think it's a major flaw that this article broadly assumes good faith on the part of cancel-culture agitators. A lot of them are perfectly self-interested and borderline sociopathic" twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1538144622643494912?cxt=HHwWgIC-3dCYy9gqAAAA

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Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:59

Floisme says

The sticking point for me is, so much of this thread is about condemning censorship. And I agree. And yet we also seem to be dancing around - or waving away as 'bad judgement' or 'unkind' or 'bad form' or whatever - the fact that the original censor was Clanchy herself. I can't get past that.

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with in these words of criticism. When I say that Clanchy has been unkind, rash, behaved badly, etc, I mean to criticise her. I am also taking her grief into account, and I would do the same if it were another writer. I don't see why you object to her behaviour being called 'unkind' (etc).

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 15:01

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 14:51

It is prurient. I'm astonished at the apologists here.

Prurient is a strong word, if a lot of people think it doesn't apply at all, maybe you need to consider that you are seeing something that isn't there. It's not like posters here aren't sensitive to the sexualization of children, if anything I would say they are far more so than the general population.

Floisme · 22/06/2022 15:02

I don't think being 'unkind' is relevant. I don't expect writers to be kind. I do expect them to respect other people's opinions of their work and not try to censor them.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:03

Floisme · 22/06/2022 15:02

I don't think being 'unkind' is relevant. I don't expect writers to be kind. I do expect them to respect other people's opinions of their work and not try to censor them.

The Twitter people bullying KC seem to think it's relevant. Fair enough if you don't.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:05

Also, Floisme, it's not as if anyone has said only unkind. That word has been used alongside many others. It does rather feel like any criticism of KC doesn't pass muster unless framed in the exact terminology you want...

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 15:06

There’s a real dissonance when a self-admitted “not very good person” goes into a selfless job where one is supposed to be kind, and then writes about her pupils in a nasty way. So she’s being taken to task for being horrible when she shouldn’t have been. Teachers just aren’t supposed to write mean things about their students. I wonder why the book did so well. Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

As a previous poster has already touched upon, I find it hard to understand the fixation on Clanchy's perceived niceness or otherwise.

Firstly, I don't know anyone (particularly not women, who are socially trained to be self-deprecating) who says that they're uncomplicatedly a nice or a good person. Anyone with even a modicum of self-awareness understands that human beings are complicated creatures, full of contradictions - we contain multitudes, as Whitman would have it. Clanchy is clearly a highly educated and intelligent woman, and I'd be amazed if she didn't hold more nuanced positions about her character than "nice" or "nasty".

I also don't really agree that she's written "mean things" about her students - that's so reductive, as though Clanchy is some kind of educational Regina George, gleefully recording spiteful commentaries on her pupils in her burn book.

I think she has been very honest about the unpalatable and unfair reactions she's had to some pupils and some situations, but the whole premise of the book and the structure of each chapter, is her attempt to reflect on them, taking lessons from them. This isn't being "being horrible", it's striving to understand and refine her underpinning pedagogy and practice within the context of an imperfect educational (and social) system.

Like the rest of us, she's flawed, and this whole affair suggests that there are blind spots where she wasn't aware there was issue with her responses or that there were lessons to be learned. That's possibly another pitfall in writing a memoir - it's exposing in more ways than perhaps the author anticipated.

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 15:07

I do believe that at the time she genuinely thought she had been misquoted. I would also ask a website to take down content that I believed was libelling me.

She presumably has a copy of her own book on her shelf. I would check carefully before claiming someone was libelling me!

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:11

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 15:07

I do believe that at the time she genuinely thought she had been misquoted. I would also ask a website to take down content that I believed was libelling me.

She presumably has a copy of her own book on her shelf. I would check carefully before claiming someone was libelling me!

She was recently bereaved.

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 15:17

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:11

She was recently bereaved.

Yes. As a teacher, someone who has lost a parent, and as someone a bit given to leaping before I look, I am inclined to have some sympathy with her responding hastily (and badly) but not necessarily consciously deceptively.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 15:19

Prurient is a strong word, if a lot of people think it doesn't apply at all, maybe you need to consider that you are seeing something that isn't there.

The people claiming it's "not prurient" a) don't seem to have read the book b) have invented things that are not in the book or twisted/misquoted what was actually said (replacing "bosomy" with "curvy", or claimed KC's comments were simply observing that the girls "had very sexualised appearances" when there's no indication anything about their appearances were sexualised, and one was wearing a hijab!) and c) seem determined to defend KC and attack anyone who criticises her work at any costs.

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 15:21

achillestoes · 22/06/2022 14:56

I don’t think teachers need to be kind. I’m happy for them to be neutral or even unkind, provided they can keep that side of themselves private. They should generally be perceived as acting in their students’ best interests.

This is interesting. It seems to me that those who knew KC as a teacher did, and do, perceive her as an excellent, caring and trusted teacher. I don't get the impression that she had a dark, unkind "side of herself" that she kept (or should have kept) under wraps. But I suppose you are saying that the act of writing the anonymised memoir in the style that she did, was not in her pupils' interest and that this might affect the way future pupils and parents perceive her?

Hmm. I have certainly learnt quite a bit from the extracts of her writing that I've read - I think that can only be in the interests of children like those she taught? I'm certainly no "better" a person than KC; I'm sure I would have many of the misapprehensions and blind spots that she evokes.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:22

I have read the book. Smile

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 15:23

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 15:19

Prurient is a strong word, if a lot of people think it doesn't apply at all, maybe you need to consider that you are seeing something that isn't there.

The people claiming it's "not prurient" a) don't seem to have read the book b) have invented things that are not in the book or twisted/misquoted what was actually said (replacing "bosomy" with "curvy", or claimed KC's comments were simply observing that the girls "had very sexualised appearances" when there's no indication anything about their appearances were sexualised, and one was wearing a hijab!) and c) seem determined to defend KC and attack anyone who criticises her work at any costs.

I have read the book (the first edition).

I think the conversation has actually been quite nuanced for the most part; I'm not picking up on anyone defending Clanchy blindly. Most posters seem to be trying to tease out something quite complex from the discussion.

IrisVersicolor · 22/06/2022 15:25

Haven’t read the whole thread but I did try reading the book. Imo it was right to be “cancelled” and I’m very surprised it was published in the first place. For me, the fact that it was is a testament to the white middle-class-ness of publishing.

(white middle class myself not “bashing” anyone).

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 15:31

And yet we also seem to be dancing around - or waving away as 'bad judgement' or 'unkind' or 'bad form' or whatever - the fact that the original censor was Clanchy herself. I can't get past that.

I kind of feel that people have acknowledged that and agreed with you on that score? Even if perhaps not used the particular terminology you'd like. I think everyone agreed, more or less, 'she started it'. But then the discussion has been more focused around the consequences of this situation for authors, for publishing, and for the wider culture.

If it wasn't clear before, I do think that what KC did in responding to the review was wrong. If it's the case that she tried to get the reviewer fired, then I agree that's horrible. For me, the more important part of this is what happens next, since that's where the serious consequences for all of us begin.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:31

@IrisVersicolor Why?

What do you think cancellation should consist of?

Which other books / authors should be cancelled?

IrisVersicolor · 22/06/2022 15:32

Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

I don’t know that that it was seen as refreshingly honest. I saw it as unrefreshingly old school colonial: stereotyping, objectivising and othering.

IrisVersicolor · 22/06/2022 15:34

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:31

@IrisVersicolor Why?

What do you think cancellation should consist of?

Which other books / authors should be cancelled?

Well, to answer that question I’d have to explain racism to you and I just don’t have time.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 15:35

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:57

@TheLassWiADelicateAir You're not engaging with the many rebuttals. It isn't convincing simply to repeat yourself. Hmm

I've no idea what you're referring to. And I might apply your own cooment to the many unconvincing repetitions on here.

CrossPurposes · 22/06/2022 15:35

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 15:19

Prurient is a strong word, if a lot of people think it doesn't apply at all, maybe you need to consider that you are seeing something that isn't there.

The people claiming it's "not prurient" a) don't seem to have read the book b) have invented things that are not in the book or twisted/misquoted what was actually said (replacing "bosomy" with "curvy", or claimed KC's comments were simply observing that the girls "had very sexualised appearances" when there's no indication anything about their appearances were sexualised, and one was wearing a hijab!) and c) seem determined to defend KC and attack anyone who criticises her work at any costs.

The quote contains both words: "she had a bosomy, curvy figure with a tiny waist and pretty ankles."

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:35

IrisVersicolor · 22/06/2022 15:32

Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

I don’t know that that it was seen as refreshingly honest. I saw it as unrefreshingly old school colonial: stereotyping, objectivising and othering.

But this seems to be saying that you didn't like it. That is fine! There are many books I don't like. I think the response to not liking a book should be donating it, or even binning it. Maybe writing on a blog about how crap it was if you feel like doing so. Even, if you're a good enough writer (general you), perhaps an article for a journal or magazine about your opinion.

No one is saying everyone has to like a particular book. It doesn't bother me in the least if you hate Clanchy's! But I don't see why that should translate into cancellation.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 15:36

the white middle-class-ness of publishing

Publishing is one of the wokest industries imaginable. Perhaps that's because it's still so white and middle class. But also probably because it's dominated by women.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:36

@IrisVersicolor It's pretty lazy to say 'I'd have to explain racism' and use that as an excuse for not replying when asked why you don't like the book! Hmm

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 15:38

IrisVersicolor · 22/06/2022 15:32

Maybe it was seen as refreshingly honest?

I don’t know that that it was seen as refreshingly honest. I saw it as unrefreshingly old school colonial: stereotyping, objectivising and othering.

But other readers have disagreed with you. Why should your opinion be the one that holds sway? Why should it be fair to cancel a book that some people don't like, when other people do like it?

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 15:39

@TheLassWiADelicateAir I was referring to this post of yours:

It is prurient. I'm astonished at the apologists here.

You're not justifying your opinion, clarifying it, offering any evidence, etc. If you don't want to, that's up to you, but when a comment really consists of nothing but 'it is [opinion]' repeated again, it will look very unconvincing. I don't think that applies to any of my comments, but I could well have forgotten one; apologies if I have!

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