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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Guardian article about Kate Clanchy "The book that tore publishing apart: ‘Harm has been done, and now everyone’s afraid’"

1000 replies

miri1985 · 18/06/2022 17:50

www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/18/the-book-that-tore-publishing-apart-harm-has-been-done-and-now-everyones-afraid

Interesting article but Sarah Ditum said it on twitter better than I could "I think it's a major flaw that this article broadly assumes good faith on the part of cancel-culture agitators. A lot of them are perfectly self-interested and borderline sociopathic" twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1538144622643494912?cxt=HHwWgIC-3dCYy9gqAAAA

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11
MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 13:38

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 09:53

I'm not saying she's accountable to me.

I'm saying it's fair enough for people to criticise her on the basis of her book containing prurient, offensive and inappropriate descriptions. It's also fair enough to debate about it and defend her, but I find these defences odd and illogical in the light of how she reacted to the review.

I do not support "cancellation", vicious bullying, name-calling etc of the kind that has gone on over this.

But I'm also seeing this weird straw-manning behaviour where her defenders are putting it all down to cancel culture and purity spiralling and no one being allowed to write anything descriptive blah blah. That's bollocks. Her descriptions were ill-judged at absolute best and I completely understand how they upset people. It's OK to address what happened and to criticise her and her publishers.

And I am not on the woke, SJW, purity spiralling side at all. That's why I'm finding all this so discombobulating. I'm amazed people defend this as sophisticated, poetic etc and feel they have to explain to "morons" how writing and poetry and freedom of expression work. Yes, I know and I defend them. It's still possible for a writer to get it badly wrong and be pulled up on it.

On the one hand, of course "someone might be offended" should not be a reason to shut down all cultural expression. I hate that shit.

On the other, it's still possible for someone to be unnecessarily, shockingly offensive and it's OK for people to say why. Or are you saying that there are no words, phrases, racist descriptions etc, used first-person about real people, that you wouldn't approve because it's sophisticated and written by a poet?

To me your charachterization of the comments is so far out that I find it hard to even think you are serious. I'm not saying you are not serious, but to me it's like someone who is saying "He cut the cheese" is deeply offensive, it just doesn't compute.

I don't even think her writing is all that great in terms of ultimate literary effect, but the idea that it is "prurient" seems completely bizarre. We have full sized ads in shopping complexes with young teens in their knickers selling bras, noticing a girl is curvy is just a physical description.

Mind you, I also think the current taboos on physical description that someone might think relates to race are often quite toxic. While you might disagree, I'd submit that it's not really the kind of stuff a publisher should be making decisions about - even publishers need to have a strong awareness of allowing the ideas of authors to be expressed clearly - even if they personally disagree. The industry isn't working otherwise, this is how we end up with George Orwell struggling to publish a book critical of communism.

But as for KC's response, I suspect that she, being a nice middle aged woman who thinks of herself as caring and open, was not on the ball in the game of being the target in this kind of game. She was initially angry that people were accusing her of something and very unwisly engaged, and even perhaps somewhat unfairly. But in attempting to be responsive ultimately went on to agree that perhaps some of her words, when decontextualized, could be misunderstood. What she failed to really grasp is that any words decontextualized will be misunderstood and her critics weren't actually concerned with really trying to understand her anyway.

One of the differences between controversial men and some constroversial women, and women like KC, is that when someone accuses the former of this kind of thing they tend to say, fuck off, unless they really made an error. They don't attempt to appease anyone.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:40

It would be absolutely bonkers if, under her real name, she lied and then doubled down like that, so presumably she's telling the truth and the anonymous reviewer did edit it retroactively. But there are people all through this thread insisting she lied!

No, she absolutely lied. What you claim is "bonkers" is what happened. Remember KC's original tweet contained screencaps of the review - the screencaps KC tweeted show what the review said at the time of her tweet.

You can also use websites that archive other sites like Google Cache or Internet Wayback Machine to look at what the review said in the eight months between the review being posted, and KC noticing and deciding to screencap and tweet about it.

I'm also glad to hear it's untrue that KC went after the reviewer and tried to contact her employer etc. I did think that sounded very unlikely.

She tweeted that she was going to, though. That's on the record.

To those of you who think the above opinions are odd, illogical, wrong, abusive etc, please tell me what would be a better response to the situation? I've asked several times what should be done about KC and her book. Ban it, cancel her? Take her to court? Have her stripped and flogged in the street? Pulp the book, put an 'OFFENSIVE' sticker on it? I would like to know what you think would be a fair and proportionate response to her writing some debateably-not-very-good descriptions and having a childish strop about a bad review?

I haven't seen a single person on this thread who believes in censorship, or that her book requires any form of "response." Simply people who don't think a publisher deciding they no longer want to work with an abusive liar who creates scandals and attacks her own reader constitutes "censorship" - an opinion posters on this thread have referred to as "gaslighting" and "stupid" because apparently some people simply refuse to accept that others have different opinions.

A fair and proportionate response is permitting people who dislike the book to debate why they dislike the book, and make the issues with the book clear so that people who would find it hurtful or traumatising to read can avoid it. Which is exactly what's happened, and which some people seem to take huge offense over and attempt to censor and bully or twist facts to stop them from expressing negative opinions about the book.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 13:41

What could she have done? One suggestion was - not write it all.

You realise that this is completely unreasonable, I hope.

achillestoes · 22/06/2022 13:41

‘What could she have done? One suggestion was - not write it all. Alternatively she could have turned it into fiction or perhaps she could have written something a bit more geared towards practical training for teachers about how to recognise one's biases.’

Or she could have written exactly what she wrote, let her critics have their say and left it at that.

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 13:44

Floisme · 22/06/2022 10:14

Same here, except I didn't follow the debate last time around. But I've been thinking about it for several days now and I can't get past how this probably only happened because Clanchy tried to shut someone down for writing something she didn't like, and by doing so, engineered her own shutdown.

I just don't see how this is logical, and usually you make a lot of sense to me, so I don't see what I'm missing here.

Yes, it seems like KC herself unwittingly set this off, and so she is the origin, and her initial action was not well thought out and I think inappropriate and unkind.

None of that impacts whether or not subsequenct critisisms of her book are well founded or has much at all to do with how those kinds of critisisms affect publishing more generally. It's entirely possible to think she was unwide/wrong to engage in the first place without therefore thinking arguments that her book is racist and should be withdrawn are correct.

If we can claim any author who is an ass must accept any criticism of his book we are in for a lot of withdrawn books.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:45

I don't even think her writing is all that great in terms of ultimate literary effect, but the idea that it is "prurient" seems completely bizarre. We have full sized ads in shopping complexes with young teens in their knickers selling bras, noticing a girl is curvy is just a physical description.

Talking about children's breasts, mouths and legs - using highly sexualised language - is absolutely prurient.

I don't know why KC's defenders are so determined to twist the facts and deny what KC actually said.

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 13:45

But as for KC's response, I suspect that she, being a nice middle aged woman who thinks of herself as caring and open, was not on the ball in the game of being the target in this kind of game. She was initially angry that people were accusing her of something and very unwisly engaged, and even perhaps somewhat unfairly. But in attempting to be responsive ultimately went on to agree that perhaps some of her words, when decontextualized, could be misunderstood. What she failed to really grasp is that any words decontextualized will be misunderstood and her critics weren't actually concerned with really trying to understand her anyway.

I think that's a good summary.

I wasn't too interested in the book before, and thought the decontextualised quotes were a bit cringe. But as a result of this discussion, I've now bought the book and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Maëlys · 22/06/2022 13:47

She tweeted that she was going to, though. That's on the record.

@JemimaPuddlegoose How would she have been able to contact the woman’s employers if she had no idea who she was? I genuinely don’t understand this.

Notmanybroadbeans · 22/06/2022 13:51

achillestoes · 22/06/2022 13:35

Notmanybroadbeans

I understand, and people are different. I wouldn’t want someone who was prepared to talk about my daughter’s ‘rotten mouth’ or her moustache in front of her teaching. I know that’s not everyone and I don’t particularly condemn KC for her honesty.

Fair enough, and especially as you have read the book and I haven't, I'm not inclined to argue. I just felt moved to contribute as everything I've seen of KC's writing so far shows me someone thoughtful and decent, and I'm a bit appalled at the way that this has spiralled (not by you, I mainly mean the Twitter witch-hunt). It's as if nobody has ever written a teaching memoir before, or any other kind of memoir. I'm a bit worried that if the mob have their way the only books we will be left with are "Topsy and Tim" and we lose an arena in which to explore complexity, ambiguity, and the human experience. I see KC's writing as fairly literary, not necessarily appropriate for a textbook but ideal for a thoughtful memoir that also deals with the way the children express themselves through literature. Apparently reading good literature is very beneficial to mental health, and I believe this is not due to beach-read style escapism but rather the way it makes you think differently and borrow new perspectives. To me that is the greater good.

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:53

It's entirely possible to think she was unwide/wrong to engage in the first place without therefore thinking arguments that her book is racist and should be withdrawn are correct.

Exactly.

I think the book is very badly written and has potential to really hurt people. But I don't think it should be censored (by censored I mean "banned from being published" - a specific publisher deciding they no longer want to work with you because of your behaviour is not "censorship").

I think she was deeply wrong to attack someone and to lie in an attempt to censor an opinion she disliked. I don't agree with censorship in any form. Authors trying to censor critics is completely wrong and immoral.

If writers are allowed the huge platform of a published book and widespread national media to disseminate their opinions, then regular people are allowed the platform of social media to disseminate their opinions too. Obviously I don't condone tweets that are abusive, but if someone's opinion is that the book shouldn't have been published, why do they not have the right to express that opinion? I don't personally agree with that but I don't see the reason to censor opinions just because I disagree with them.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 13:55

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 13:38

I think she's a terrible writer.

I only read the cleaned up version. Even there she came across as smug, snobbish, self- regarding and patronising. And full of clichés. If she had been writing a novel, then fair enough if she was aiming to create such a character. The best it can be said is she was honest about her own prejudices- although even there the honesty is often inadvertent.

The title was Some Kids I Taught And What They Taught Me. A bit misleading- I formed little impression Clanchy had learned anything.

What could she have done? One suggestion was - not write it all. Alternatively she could have turned it into fiction or perhaps she could have written something a bit more geared towards practical training for teachers about how to recognise one's biases.

There is no way to un-write a book. That's not a real suggestion, is it?

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 13:58

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:45

I don't even think her writing is all that great in terms of ultimate literary effect, but the idea that it is "prurient" seems completely bizarre. We have full sized ads in shopping complexes with young teens in their knickers selling bras, noticing a girl is curvy is just a physical description.

Talking about children's breasts, mouths and legs - using highly sexualised language - is absolutely prurient.

I don't know why KC's defenders are so determined to twist the facts and deny what KC actually said.

The word "fresh" is not by any stretch of the imagination, "highly sexualised language".

JemimaPuddlegoose · 22/06/2022 13:58

I've seen of KC's writing so far shows me someone thoughtful and decent

Genuinely, what about describing white working class children as "boring" "feral" and "drearily mediocre", mocking their chavvy names, and saying she'd "happily slap a burka" on them to cover up their "rotting teeth" and "bulging double chins" comes across as thoughtful and decent?

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 13:59

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 11:29

There’s lots of discussion here about whether some of what Clanchy describes is predatory at worst or ill-judged at best.

There are always things to learn, or reflect upon, and I don’t disagree that Clanchy responded very poorly to that initial Good Reads review, and how it challenged some of her positions and attitudes.

But, Some Kids... is not a textbook. It’s a memoir. And what her memoir was, was honest. And that’s what memoirs are for, surely? Some parts are pretty uncomfortable to read, yes. We want our teachers to be non-judgemental, compassionate, without bias. But the reality is that of course they are not. I think this idea that she’s somehow a bad teacher (or sexualising children, or writing thinly veiled pornography) is not grasping that Clanchy is depicting her responses; her self-examination of her responses; and then her actions. And it’s these second two that really matter.

I have taught in large inner-city comprehensives for twenty years, and I’ve taught many girls like Kristell in Clanchy’s book, often ones who have experienced some degree of abuse or neglect, who present themselves in sexually precocious ways. And because I am a human being doing a very complicated job, I’ll likely have lots of initial responses about this:

  • Annoyance (why is she making life difficult for herself, me, and her classmates by preening in the mirror, flashing her legs at the boys near her, and refusing to get on with the work?)

  • Concern (What’s going on here? This sexually precocious dress and behaviour is new – has something happened?

The way she’s presenting herself is going to attract predatory older males and she’s really vulnerable)

  • Aesthetic distaste (it’s such a horrible look on a young girl, she looked so much nicer before all this).

Some of these thoughts are classist and rooted in sexism. They are not desirable, or positive thoughts to have about a pupil. But they are there, because I am a flawed human. I am also experienced and I am trained to recognise that these are not desirable or positive, and can examine them and remind myself that most of these thoughts are not fair. Other teachers will have different thoughts maybe, ones that reflect their own particular set of biases and preconceptions, but none will honestly initially react with wholly positive feelings of concern and care.

But then, mostly, hopefully, we do the right thing by that child. We teach them well, we adjust our content, resources and delivery to try to reach them; depending on our relationship with them we may try to talk with them to see if we can support them with what’s bothering them; we go to their Head of Year and talk to them about our concerns; we email their form tutor to ask them if they can do a round robin to see if there are similar concerns from other teachers; we fill out a safeguarding report; we worry about them.

For Kristell, the composite girl in the book, whose description has discomfited many posters, Clanchy does much more than this. She nurtures her creatively, she provides her with a space to articulate and process her own trauma. This is from the book:

Now Kristell sits with Tia and writes about assault and rape and arm-slashing and helplessness. She was right to tell me that the boys’ attention was a form of hate; it was, and so was my attitude to her, so was the attitude of our entire society, the attitude that identifies the disruption as coming from the young girl, not the gazing man, that attributes power to such a powerless person.”

Clanchy does not seem to me to be a bad teacher, far from it. She seems reflective, proactive and transformative. She explicitly acknowledges that her own initial responses to Kristell were unfair, sexist, sexualising. She’s learning from that. And she’s doing something fantastic educationally and personally for that child as a result.

What I would ask about this though - is it unfair to notice that a child has been sexualized, and to think it's a bad thing?

Because to me, if that sort of sexualization of girls is real, of course we notice it, and of course we find it worrying, and of course we don't really like the immediate effects either. It's bad for the girl, it's also bad for the other girls who can experience it as a kind of pressure, and for the boys who are now in an environment that sexualizes girls and what's more, to them it seems like the girls are on board with that.

I think her negative response is not in ignorance of all that, it's the normal response to it. The good response by the teacher is all the things you say, above all continue to treat the student as a person. The correct response of the writer seeing this is to document it for the reader, both the externals and internal processes.

I can't help but feel that when people react as many seem to be against this, it's in part projecting their own discomfort with the situation being described onto Clancy herself. And the main reason that would happen it seems to me is because they recognize how negative the situation is but are not comfortable with clearly saying girls sexualizing themselves in response to social pressuresis a serious problem. Maybe because of the way that has been politicized in liberal politics?

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 13:59

To me your charachterization of the comments is so far out that I find it hard to even think you are serious. I'm not saying you are not serious, but to me it's like someone who is saying "He cut the cheese" is deeply offensive, it just doesn't compute.

It's funny because I'm having the same flabbergasted response to people who claim they aren't offensive. It's not that describing someone as e.g. curvy is always, in itself, prurient or . It's the way the unnecessary, sometimes verging on leery, raking over of physical features and body parts, often linking them to race and often very very personal, goes on throughout the book, the tone and the way it makes her come across as superior, patrician and disrespectful.

Yes I was shocked, genuinely – not as in me personally needing the smelling salts, I'm fairly unshockable – but that a publisher had let that stuff through in a memoir/NF work about vulnerable kids of a variety of ethnicities. I've flagged up many potentially racist, sexist and otherwise offensive usages in books that I've found less shocking, so I would expect someone to have done the same here. And it's not about cancellation or restriction in my experience - it's often about saying to the author, are you aware how this comes across, I'd suggest making it less open to accusations of racism. They often just haven't realised. Or a designer/artist hasn't realised that they've depicted all white people and all in sexist roles. I do think those things should be considered - I don't think that's some kind of horrendous shutting down of freedoms.

It's clear to me that this whole incident has highlighted a massive gulf between the way different people see things like this, which is an education for me.

And I do take on board that maybe I am oversensitive because I work in publishing. As I said I'm still thinking about it.

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 14:00

Sorry that should be "prurient or offensive"

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:01

Do you think a child cannot be boring or mediocre or have a double chin, Jemima?

beastlyslumber · 22/06/2022 14:01

I'm a bit worried that if the mob have their way the only books we will be left with are "Topsy and Tim" and we lose an arena in which to explore complexity, ambiguity, and the human experience.

Yes. The pressure to write something that is completely inoffensive is making for very boring, pointless books. We won't need to ban books, we'll just rob them of all their power.

It's not just literature, either. It's happening in all the arts. I have begun seeking out offence because I do not want to live in a protected 'safe space' where no one ever says anything that bothers me or hurts my feelings. I don't think it's good for mental health.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:03

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 11:29

There’s lots of discussion here about whether some of what Clanchy describes is predatory at worst or ill-judged at best.

There are always things to learn, or reflect upon, and I don’t disagree that Clanchy responded very poorly to that initial Good Reads review, and how it challenged some of her positions and attitudes.

But, Some Kids... is not a textbook. It’s a memoir. And what her memoir was, was honest. And that’s what memoirs are for, surely? Some parts are pretty uncomfortable to read, yes. We want our teachers to be non-judgemental, compassionate, without bias. But the reality is that of course they are not. I think this idea that she’s somehow a bad teacher (or sexualising children, or writing thinly veiled pornography) is not grasping that Clanchy is depicting her responses; her self-examination of her responses; and then her actions. And it’s these second two that really matter.

I have taught in large inner-city comprehensives for twenty years, and I’ve taught many girls like Kristell in Clanchy’s book, often ones who have experienced some degree of abuse or neglect, who present themselves in sexually precocious ways. And because I am a human being doing a very complicated job, I’ll likely have lots of initial responses about this:

  • Annoyance (why is she making life difficult for herself, me, and her classmates by preening in the mirror, flashing her legs at the boys near her, and refusing to get on with the work?)

  • Concern (What’s going on here? This sexually precocious dress and behaviour is new – has something happened?

The way she’s presenting herself is going to attract predatory older males and she’s really vulnerable)

  • Aesthetic distaste (it’s such a horrible look on a young girl, she looked so much nicer before all this).

Some of these thoughts are classist and rooted in sexism. They are not desirable, or positive thoughts to have about a pupil. But they are there, because I am a flawed human. I am also experienced and I am trained to recognise that these are not desirable or positive, and can examine them and remind myself that most of these thoughts are not fair. Other teachers will have different thoughts maybe, ones that reflect their own particular set of biases and preconceptions, but none will honestly initially react with wholly positive feelings of concern and care.

But then, mostly, hopefully, we do the right thing by that child. We teach them well, we adjust our content, resources and delivery to try to reach them; depending on our relationship with them we may try to talk with them to see if we can support them with what’s bothering them; we go to their Head of Year and talk to them about our concerns; we email their form tutor to ask them if they can do a round robin to see if there are similar concerns from other teachers; we fill out a safeguarding report; we worry about them.

For Kristell, the composite girl in the book, whose description has discomfited many posters, Clanchy does much more than this. She nurtures her creatively, she provides her with a space to articulate and process her own trauma. This is from the book:

Now Kristell sits with Tia and writes about assault and rape and arm-slashing and helplessness. She was right to tell me that the boys’ attention was a form of hate; it was, and so was my attitude to her, so was the attitude of our entire society, the attitude that identifies the disruption as coming from the young girl, not the gazing man, that attributes power to such a powerless person.”

Clanchy does not seem to me to be a bad teacher, far from it. She seems reflective, proactive and transformative. She explicitly acknowledges that her own initial responses to Kristell were unfair, sexist, sexualising. She’s learning from that. And she’s doing something fantastic educationally and personally for that child as a result.

@RoseLunarPink Did you read this comment from BasicBiscuit? I think this is one of the best analyses on the thread and serves as a strong counterpoint to the "shocked" perspective. I would genuinely be interested to know your thoughts.

BasicBiscuit · 22/06/2022 14:04

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 22/06/2022 13:38

I think she's a terrible writer.

I only read the cleaned up version. Even there she came across as smug, snobbish, self- regarding and patronising. And full of clichés. If she had been writing a novel, then fair enough if she was aiming to create such a character. The best it can be said is she was honest about her own prejudices- although even there the honesty is often inadvertent.

The title was Some Kids I Taught And What They Taught Me. A bit misleading- I formed little impression Clanchy had learned anything.

What could she have done? One suggestion was - not write it all. Alternatively she could have turned it into fiction or perhaps she could have written something a bit more geared towards practical training for teachers about how to recognise one's biases.

Oh, come on. That's really not accurate.

I quoted this excerpt earlier on:

“ Now Kristell sits with Tia and writes about assault and rape and arm-slashing and helplessness. She was right to tell me that the boys’ attention was a form of hate; it was, and so was my attitude to her, so was the attitude of our entire society, the attitude that identifies the disruption as coming from the young girl, not the gazing man, that attributes power to such a powerless person.”

This is fairly typical paragraph. Each chapter focuses on a small group of kids and situations and concludes by reflecting on what she's learned from it. It's the premise of the book.

Or is it that you don't think she's being sincere in what he is professing to have learned?

CrossPurposes · 22/06/2022 14:09

I have found the to and fro of this thread to be compelling. Thanks to everyone for their contributions to an enlightening and thought provoking discussion.

MangyInseam · 22/06/2022 14:09

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 13:58

The word "fresh" is not by any stretch of the imagination, "highly sexualised language".

Neither is curvy or "Bambi lashes". I have a curvy daughter, my other daughter complains to me egularly that she isn't curvy. And Bambi lashes is a reference to a children's movie.

The overall impression is of a student who looks womanly and probably attractive to men, but that's not a prurient observation.

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 14:10

I do get Biscuit's argument - but I just can't see how if you were truly reflecting on, and wanting to highlight, your own prejudices, you would seem to revel in so much personal, physical and often very rude description. Surely you'd make it clearer by saying "I admit I thought things like XYZ at first" and explain why? But it's not done like that at all. It feels to me like people are trying to put a spin on it that's not there. It reads like she just thinks she's great at evocative descriptions and shoved them all in unfiltered with no thought for what I want to call respect and decency, but I\ll probably just get called a moron for not getting it.

And again re the reaction to the review. If she meant all this in a sophisticated, self-reflexive, political commentary kind of way, she could simply have explained that in her defence.

Innocenta · 22/06/2022 14:11

@MangyInseam I totally agree. In fact, I find it disturbing that these terms are being deemed irremediably sexualised!

RoseLunarPink · 22/06/2022 14:12

Agree CrossPurposes. I think discussing and debating it in this way, is what should happen - in answer to those who say "what should happen?"

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