Guardian article about Kate Clanchy "The book that tore publishing apart: ‘Harm has been done, and now everyone’s afraid’"

[miri1985]

www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jun/18/the-book-that-tore-publishing-apart-harm-has-been-done-and-now-everyones-afraid

Interesting article but Sarah Ditum said it on twitter better than I could "I think it's a major flaw that this article broadly assumes good faith on the part of cancel-culture agitators. A lot of them are perfectly self-interested and borderline sociopathic" twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1538144622643494912?cxt=HHwWgIC-3dCYy9gqAAAA

The phrase she has used in one of her books (not the post), containing the word a Mumsnet moderator deleted, as part of my post is:

"Her skin was the color of Belgian chocolate."

According to Mumsnet, a Black Woman using the word "chocolate" to describe her own skin colour is "offensive", because some British Asian writers (Monisha & Sunny are of Indian origin, I believe) said so.

Do you see how crazy the point we've got, is?

If you are portraying that 'rape' revelation and showing it as anything other than her making your heart go out all the poor kids that ever act up in classrooms then you are just mean. I mean you totally have to think all the nasty things in the world to read it that way. But there are some really mean people on here.

I'm an actual child rape survivor and I thought that chapter was really nasty, and I strongly hoped the actual raped girl the chapter was about did not read it (especially the comments about her gaining weight after being raped).

It's really not acceptable to call posters horrible names like "cruel" "nasty" and "mean", or to make false accusations that posters are engaging in "deliberate" misinterpretations, simply because some people refuse to accept any opinions other than their own.

It's sheer unadulterated censorship.

I think there is at least one individual who is reporting comments they disagree with and suspect mnhq is just deleting because it's the path of least resistance.

Yes, this is true. Apparently huge numbers of my posts (even just ones that say "I personally disliked this chapter") are being maliciously reported.

It's a real shame that posters are determined to censor and oppress anyone who disliked Kate's book and any opinion that differs from their own. Clear censorship and obviously politically motivated.

It's a real shame some people hate free speech so much.

I do not want to hurt your feelings. But honestly you have to be working hard at that one. I'm coming at that from a teacher's point of view - like here's this kid, being horrible, made a big mess of herself, being a pain and honestly quite often you get fed up of them, and KC takes us right into that, shows how fed up you get then pow - here's the reason. It's not nasty at all, its really loving language and if anyone is getting the bad end of it its Kate. And if anyone did recognise themselves I think they might feel glad that someone had cared about them so much and recognised the reasons they had hurt themselves so much because girls do do that, gain weight and comfort eat. I mean I have a weight problem and I found it really kind and understanding and moving tbh. And really nice for me as a teacher to read.
I really think you're determined to read this book one way! I'm reading chapter 2 now about Essex and it's still a great book for this lady. Cheers.

I got my posts deleted and so did Beastlysleep. Someone doesn't like brown ladies.

I'm coming at that from a teacher's point of view

And you have every right to come at it from your own pov.

Everyone approaches books via the prism of their own personal experience of life. No two people will ever read a book in exactly the same way.

As a biracial woman, I'm obviously going to come at a book that's been accused of racism from a completely different perspective than people like the ones on Twitter with a bee in their bonnet about "wokeness" and "cancel culture."

As a CSA survivor, I'm obviously going to come to a chapter where a teacher is discussing a student who had been raped from a perspective of identifying with and empathising with the student, whereas I can see that a teacher might read it from the pov of identifying with the teacher.

Neither is wrong, because opinions are by their very nature subjective.

I don't believe the people who liked this book are wrong or bad, so why am I not allowed to dislike the book without name-calling?

I got my posts deleted and so did Beastlysleep. Someone doesn't like brown ladies.

Yep, it does seem to be women of colour who have been disproportionately targeted throughout this thread.

Can I just say MissMurray, I really enjoy your posts, and I’m very taken with your complete lack of cynicism when you talk to posters that I… am very cynical about. OK some of it might be pattern recognition because I’ve been on this board a while. But still, I think you must be a very good teacher. It’s nice to witness.

I've just had one of my posts tagged "Trollhunting" for factually pointing out Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie's Book "Half of a Yellow Sun" has a phrase contains a word which Mumsnet moderators saw fit to delete, and was rather odd, considering the book in question was included in the New York Times's "100 Most Notable Books of the Year".

That's an easily verifiable claim, so I do wonder why the moderators deemed the post "Trollhunting". archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/ref/books/review/20061203notable-books.html

What does "troll hunting" even mean? This is so wild. Black women being denied agency to describe their own reality by ideological zealots.

Aw thank you! now I have to confess the reason I am here is I took a challenge with my Year 12 to speak up somewhere unfamiliar! I set this one young man who is very cranky and conservative in his views to go to a meeting of our Young Labour party, and he set me to do this! Gave me the article and everything, and I accepted because I read 80 Trains a while ago and found it a bit grating and that reference to fat ladies set me off. So here I am an my marking has suffered and wait till I tell the class I got actually banned, they will laugh me out into the corridor. I'm too easy to rile.

But it's good to get stuck in and I've enjoyed a lot of it, and especially the book which really is good. I've got lots to bring into the classroom tomorrow and that's the big thing for me.
Night all! maybe I'll be back. No grudges Jemima, see you again!

the thing is Jemima I'm really sure the teacher is empathising with the student there. Didn't it get to you about her pretty picture and her 'dolly hair'. Kate is just really really sorry for her and everything she's done to herself. It's just really sad and you know kids who attack the hell out of you as a teacher they are like that. I'm just reading the Exclusion chapter now and you know I recognise everyone of those kids and don't think there's anything mean there at all.

You do seem like a great teacher, Miss Murray! I've appreciated your posts and your way of dealing with people. Hope your class get a kick out of hearing about your experience here :)

Black women being denied agency to describe their own reality by ideological zealots.

Yep, it's absolutely crazy - whenever I reveal that I'm a woman of colour, like clockwork, my posts start being mass-reported, and the endless goady "certain posters are just too sensitive/stupid/playing the race card/pushing a woke agenda/I'm scared of the scary black woman" posts start.

I have to confess the reason I am here is I took a challenge with my Year 12 to speak up somewhere unfamiliar!

That's really lovely to read, and I hope the experience was overall beneficial to you and to your class - you're clearly a great teacher.

Miss Murray, I really would advise most strongly against sharing this with your class.

One of the things that has been extensively discussed on this thread is the ethics of a teacher making public their private thoughts about pupils. You've said some things about your school and the children you teach that really aren't appropriate for current pupils to be privy to.

At sixteen/seventeen they just aren't mature enough to see any of the wider picture other than their Sociology teacher thinks that some of them are annoying, knows that many of them have experienced trauma, believes lots are highly sexualised etc. And even if they are very mature, current pupils should still be treated in adherence with safegarding guidelines around privacy, dignity and respect, which means as a very baseline, not discussing them on the internet (and even if you're talking about previous pupils, bright current pupils will connect that these are thoughts that you have generally, including about them).

Your school will certainly have a social media policy that you signed with your contract, in which you agreed to be circumspect about what you say in general about education - and to say nothing at all about the school and its pupils - and employ high privacy measures in your personal online interactions. Mumsnet is social media, and I think that what you've said on this thread has absolutely breached this policy if you are identified.

Anonymous comments by teachers on here are fine (though be careful to nanchange often and avoid anything identifiable), but you are proposing to share the link to this thread with your class. And even if you don't share the link but just reference the fact that you took part in a discussion on here about the Kate Clanchy debate, it is the matter of moments for them to Google and find the thread (and I'm assuming Miss Murray is your real name, so it wouldn't be remotely difficult to work out which posts are yours, even without the details of your subject, the deal you had your class and the boy who is "cranky and conservative in his views" in particular).

I implore you to say nothing of this to your Year 12 class, and given that you've already had some conversations with them about your plans to post here about this issue, I would urgently ask Mumsnet to delete your comments.

Wow BasicBiscuit you take the biscuit! I have been teaching for 24 years! I've taught in 8 schools! How many kids do you think I've met? There are 16 in my Year 12, 16! Out of maybe 2000. So no I don't think I've identified them by saying teachers met traumatised kids! In fact I'm going to say it again, teachers meet traumatised kids! They meet fat kids and miserable kids and poor kids and I don't see why in the world I can't say that on Mumsnet! And btw MissMurray is only one of my names! 😆😂
Implore! What kind of a word is that?? Implore. Like you are some Victorian lady and I'm a badass with a gun. Wild. 😄🤣🤣🤣
This forum is a truly wild. I have learned so much here. I wish you could come and meet my Year 12. They'd laugh at you! It would do you good. 😃

I had my post when I said how I'd describe my own dad's skin tone deleted!!This is waaaay past anything I'd ever imagined, you ladies are wild! Why is the brown stuff in Ferrero Roche not to be referenced? Why do you keep shutting each other up? I mean really. This topic this book - it's a nice book! It' s just a book about a teacher's life. I've asked and asked and it seems it's been out for ages and no one has complained about it that was in it. No one. Like no victims, which was my point. So what is the problem with it? Why are you sooo worked up about it? if you don't like it, close it! Sorry but to go back to my original post, if it's okay for Monisha Rajesh to write about women like me being puddings and buffalo and I agree, yeah, free speech no problem, then what is the problem with this book? The real problem? Because I don't see it and I can't help feeling it personally now you all tried so hard to shut me up. I mean I just wandered on here with a point and instead of debating me or giving me a quote or answering my totally valid argument you all just reported me for saying brown stuff in Ferrero Roche! You are very far gone.

I wasn't trying to upset you, Miss Murray.

I'm a teacher too (have been teaching for a similar period of time as you) and I agree with you that teachers observe the things you describe about their pupils. The point I was making was not that this happens, but that there are GDPR and safeguarding and social media policies that teachers need to adhere to.

It's irrelevant that the overall substance of your argument is that you care deeply about the children you teach. Any Headteacher and governors will view any comments about the school and/or pupils as a breach of this (and you have explicitly commented one one current pupil in particular).

SLT can easily discover that you've written here, as you've told your class about it. If one child discusses it with their parents (the "cranky and conservative" boy, for instance) then you could be in for a parental complaint and an investigation. I've led a few of those, and they're really unpleasant and distressing for the teacher involved, and almost all of them were people who really meant well and were passionate.

Anyway, I've said my bit - it's up to you of course.

No it's not you saying your bit it's you 'reporting' me to Mumsnet and 'imploring' me to stop and generally talking like I'm an idiot or a criminal. It's way OTT . Just because I'm a woman of colour doesn't mean I'm a junior teacher! I'm on SLT thanks, and I just shared this whole thing with them. Now I'm going in for my meeting. And if you were a teacher, that's where you'd be too, school. Bye for now

Ironically MN adopts a similar approach to publishers on these issues ie deletes in response to the posters shouting loudest. And because not all posters preface their opinions with their race, age or class then the self-appointed gatekeepers assume they're reporting people who are white and middle class. Despite the very many occasions when it's been pointed out that not everyone feels the need to declare those personal details - and actually refuse to opt into a system that seems like a voluntary one-drop declaration. It's also completely redundant since anyone can say they're anything on an anonymous forum.

A teacher on the SLT breaking social media policies, really? You just be aware what’s in your contract.

How do you know my school's social media policies? Why do you want to spend half an hour at six in the morning writing a pompous post about how I'm breaching data?
It might sound to people on this site (I get the feeling I'm in with academic types here) that you know all about teaching but you are not selling it to me. I'm not breaching data when I say I've met lots of types of kids any more than ..of hold on, KC is in her book. 🤔🙄
My HT is happy with this exercise. He's happy the kids are exploring this type of issue and so is Mr Cranky who I happen to know very well. 😉
So now can you get on with debating my actual point? I'm going to repost it.

This is my question!!
No one has answered it so I think no one can.

Problematic pages! Who said they were problematic? You?
The pages on this thread seem good to me thank you! I had a read through and it seems to me she's showing school the way I know it and she's really really humble about herself. Doesn't say she's super good at all. You could take a leaf from her book. But do you know what, why don't you put up a quote where you show how evil and patronising she is, and I'll take it in to Year 12 on Tuesday and see what they think! Deal? And then we''ll look at the Monisha Rajesh pages too. 😃
But you know what I just figured out? The big hole in your argument. You haven't got a victim. You're saying that MR is fine to describe a fat brown woman as a buffalo because basically the woman is not going to know, but its wrong for KC because she's hurting the kid's feelings. And I can buy that argument because I'm a fat brown woman and when I read the buffalo bit I feel a bit hurt but so what, she's not saying it to me and she is showing you an Indian train and poverty and global inequality and I think if I read the passage to my class they would be educated by it overall. So if KC is different where are the kids who are hurt by it. Are you saying some of them recognised themselves? IDK but I had a google and it said they stuck up for her. Were there other ones? As far as I'm concerned that bit back in the thread is about poverty and kids and its worth saying I recognise the experience. It's all different if a real kid was upset but if they weren't, then you are saying teachers shouldn't write things about their class if they do it without the kids knowing and to me that is you censoring me. So where do you get off with that? Produce a victim or answer the question.

Stay strong and keep pulling!