Men Loitering in Women's Spaces

[Datada]

In the past 2 weeks, l saw a man in a ladies loo, with his family. His wife in a cubicle, him hanging around the sinks with 2 young children. I felt it was an erosion of women's boundaries. There was no need for him to be there, and he felt entitled to be there. When l walked in he didn't bat an eyelid. This was a new level of cheeky fuckery

I had to take a piss and change a tampon with Joe Bloggs standing 2 meters away. I was not comfortable, nor ok with this, and that is my right. l shouldn't have to challenge randomers in my day to day, so l chose not to.

Then last week, a man with his wife in a lingerie dept. l saw him staring at women looking at bras. I was trying to dodge his laser gaze, while trying to find a new bra style. And then thought, fuck this and left. I know a department store is gender neutral, but this guy was a creep. I don't care if a man is buying underwear for himself or his partner, once he is minding his own business and not using the place as fodder for his sexual fantasies.

These heterosexual men now just think it's ok to loiter and look at women in intimate female spaces. Women need a level of comfort and protection just doing daily tasks, this is being erased. Women have a right to privacy. Women need protected spaces.

…entering the ladies. So I can’t understand why it’s necessary for a mother to need her husband with her. In fact, I think it’s controlling not to let her out of his sight.

HRTFT. My partner and I (both of us female) were camping last year and became uncomfortably aware of a man wrapped in a dry towel and flip-flops, hanging around outside the women's showers. He was behaving in an furtive way. My partner had finished showering before me and had stepped outside to wait for me. She asked him if she could help, thinking maybe he had a child or female partner inside, but he walked off muttering. When I joined her and we walked away we noticed him waiting around the side of another building and photographed him opening the door of the women's showers. We then approached him, made it clear that these were the women's showers and directed him to the men's. I also told him that I was going to report him to the site owner, which we did. The owner said he'd deal with it and I didn't see the guy again.

I'd suggest taking your phone out and photographing these men in inappropriate areas.

Conclusions from this thread are that women don't want a man in the ladies toilet, that's clear.
And women don't want a man in the lingerie section either! The department store is a public shop, a man can buy himself or his partner women's underwear, once he is minding his own business.

The man l encountered in the bra section was actively seeking out women and staring at what bras the women were looking at. It was creepy voyerism. That is not ok. And it's ok to discuss this.

It's also more subtle, ask, how do women feel when they see a man in the lingerie section? If you care about women, you would ask this.
This debate is about the wider reduction in women's rights currently happening in this era. If there are no boundaries then women can be made vulnerable.

It seems the people who care about women want to keep Women's Spaces and the people who don't care about women, don't care. I say, Keep Women's Spaces.

ineverthought, you shouldn't have to worry about this stuff when you are shopping.

Department stores need to take note of how women are feeling. I know l will avoid changing areas with men hanging around. It will loose them sales.

The man l encountered in the bra section was actively seeking out women and staring at what bras the women were looking at. It was creepy voyerism. That is not ok. And it's ok to discuss this.

My takeaway from this thread is that some women don't want men in lingerie departments but plenty aren't bothered about it. My biggest takeaway from this thread is that nothing will ever change until people use their words.

Man in the toilet? either ask him to leave, or go outside and find someone else to ask him to leave
Men in the lingerie department acting suspiciously (mostly they are scrolling through their phones while the women they are with try on seemingly identical bras but don't like any of them)? speak to someone who works there. You can be discreet about this.

But there is far from consensus that knicker departments are the exclusive preserve of women.

But I don't think the shop floor of a department store which happens to sell underwear IS a women's space.
If there's a creepy guy hanging around clearly watching women or watching what they are buying, that's a different matter that need to be taken up with store security or management.
What you seem to be proposing is a ban on any men entering that section of the shop entirely. I don't think it's fair to suggest that women who don't care about that by extension don't care about women's rights.
I have talked the ear off my husband this last year about what is happening in the world of women's rights. It never occurred to me to tell him to wait outside the shop or go and look at something else while I browsed in the bra section, as if we were living in the Victorian era where a man might swoon at the sight of anything to do with "Ladies items".

Man hanging around changing rooms or toilets with clear intent on making women uncomfortable or watching them? Different kettle of fish.
I think we need to pick our battles and this isn't one of them for me.

At the M&S near my mothers house, the cafe is located on a balcony directly over the lingerie section, so you look down on it while having your cuppa and toasted teacake....

I do wonder how well a specialist lingerie shop which only permits female customers would do. It appears that some people would prefer it.
Its always appeared to me though that the shops advertise directly to mem buying for women.

Should men enter a lingerie dept? If they mind their own business and are aware that it is a sensitive space for some women. Women shouldn't be called neurotic for stating how they feel. Women shouldn't have to police this. Sometimes for the woman, her best strategy is to exit. Staff on minimum wage and zero hour contracts are under enough pressure currently

Staff on minimum wage and zero hour contracts are under enough pressure currently

That's just defeatist martyrdom. Most shops have security now, all you have to do is identify a member of staff, tell them your concerns and if they shrug it off tell them to get security, or get them yourself.

This is the thing though isn't it. Most women, particularly those most affected by this male colonisation of sensitive female spaces, are in no position to make a fuss or speak up and will just quietly cede the space and walk away.

And shop online because no, I really don't want to buy underwear alongside male people, particularly having read the M&S reviews of what some of those male people are thinking and doing to that underwear and to the changing rooms, and how it's changed how I see what used to be just practical shopping. That's a cess pit I really don't want in my life.

Instead of telling women how to behave, why not advise the creeps to stop their behaviour?

Most women, particularly those most affected by this male colonisation of sensitive female spaces, are in no position to make a fuss or speak up and will just quietly cede the space and walk away.

Why not? I know that i am an overconfident gobshite (my boss says so, so it must be true) and i have punched men for grabbing my tits in the past, so am not a shy retiring violet. And i get that not everyone is like me, but i simply do not understand why, if you see a guy who is potentially wanking over the pants, you can't just go to the nearest shop assistant and point?

I do despair, tbh, when i read over and over and over again on this site (not just this board,all over the flipping shop) that everyone is apparently so gripped by social anxiety they can't take care of their, and other women's safety by doing that one simple thing? It simply cannot be that apparently everyone who posts here was at the back of the queue when grips were handed out?

For our daughters' sakes perhaps we need to pull on our big girl pants and say something?

That's great, and I make a point of speaking out because other women more vulnerable than me can't. Some of these women are going to include:

Women with Autism
Women who speak English as an additional language
Women who have experienced CSA or DV/DA

Woman up has its place, and I am all for encouraging women to get loud, stroppy, assertive and stop being the easy ones to please, but part of this is accepting that the women likely to suffer most from this male colonisation of female spaces with absolutely no care, (and a movement that reaches very readily for police action, doxxing, trying to get your job lost, trying to get something on your DBS that will mess with your life, or threatening to hurt you just for daring to thwart them), are the ones who will find it hardest to speak up.

And victim blaming doesn't help.

You'd be surprised. I worked in M&S in my student days. They still had manned counters. I was on men's underwear. Mostly men came and just bought what they needed but you can always tell the ones who had a little fun in mind. They lurk, watching you sidelong with peculiar intensity. Then they'll ask you to hold up underpants so that they can see them properly, or ask you to smooth the fabric, or ask you to come out from behind the counter and hold them up to see if they would fit.
There was one guy who came in every week to my counter and there was always something with him. I told my supervisor and she saw him off. She clued me up about peculiar men. I have never forgotten her warning: ayestyahintyercoonter which is Glaswegian for 'Always stay behind your counter.'
The following summer I went to work in the hospital and there was my pest from the summer before. A doctor in the hospital. KO

Woman up has its place, and I am all for encouraging women to get loud, stroppy, assertive and stop being the easy ones to please

but I'm not talking about getting up in people's faces and seeing them off with a flea in their ear. You're feeling uncomfortable so you leave - so why not leave via a member of staff and bring it to their attention?
I'm not entirely daft, i realise that people aren't all "feisty" (I did say that in my other post) but the idea that so many people simply cannot walk to a member of staff and point to someone completely baffles me. Are we to assume that there is only ever one customer at a time?

It just beggars belief that for the - it is going to be a minority, even if it's sizeable - sake of a few women who can't / won't talk to staff, all men must be banned? It's ridiculous.

Sorry, but I think you’re being deeply disingenuous.

If I’m popping into a shop in my lunch break, like hell I’m going to involve shop assistants and security staff in some drama.

I’m going to exit and go somewhere else.

Zero anxiety or shy, retiring wallflower here.

I just don’t have the time, inclination or appetite for a social justice campaign in my lunch break.

And I also don’t have any issue with the men who are also clearly in there in their lunch break, doing their shopping, and minding their own business. Who would?

It’s - very clearly - not these men who are the issue.

well if you all want to be wet lettuces. I simply don't understand, if you're fleeing a potential wanker, why you don't alert the staff on your way out. It might save them walking in on something they might not want to see.

Also: i did say men acting suspiciously.

I'm out. This thread is batshit

it is going to be a minority, even if it's sizeable - sake of a few women who can't / won't talk to staff, all men must be banned?

Oh I see

If women all make the big effort to complain and try and get something done about the inappropriate men then the appropriate men can benefit from their hard work by being able to be in women's spaces.

No. This is exactly why all men should be banned. It's not the job of women to do the work and be the mummy. It's the job of men to not be bloody inappropriate, and to care about including all female people and thinking about kindness and diversity. Instead of having weaponised those words to get whatever it is they want.

I agree with the pp, if men insist on being in the lingerie department or around the changing rooms they shouldn't be on their phones and should really have their eyes down looking at the floor until their wife/partner has finished what she needs to do.

Again, the lingerie department at M&S is not a single-sex / woman’s space.

If I’m shopping with my wife (or for her) there is no reason I should not go with her when she’s shopping for new underwear.

Fuck that. Have their eyes down?

No.

Any decent man who had respect for women would be more than happy to do that.

Have their EYES down? Is it so shameful buying under garments?
This is crazy.
This has nothing to do with protecting women's spaces and everything to do with making all men feel like crap.
MOST men are not in the lingerie department to get a cheap thrill or to intimidate women. Most men are there accompanying their partners or buying gifts.
I feel like I've just stepped into a Victorian novel.