Men Loitering in Women's Spaces

[Datada]

In the past 2 weeks, l saw a man in a ladies loo, with his family. His wife in a cubicle, him hanging around the sinks with 2 young children. I felt it was an erosion of women's boundaries. There was no need for him to be there, and he felt entitled to be there. When l walked in he didn't bat an eyelid. This was a new level of cheeky fuckery

I had to take a piss and change a tampon with Joe Bloggs standing 2 meters away. I was not comfortable, nor ok with this, and that is my right. l shouldn't have to challenge randomers in my day to day, so l chose not to.

Then last week, a man with his wife in a lingerie dept. l saw him staring at women looking at bras. I was trying to dodge his laser gaze, while trying to find a new bra style. And then thought, fuck this and left. I know a department store is gender neutral, but this guy was a creep. I don't care if a man is buying underwear for himself or his partner, once he is minding his own business and not using the place as fodder for his sexual fantasies.

These heterosexual men now just think it's ok to loiter and look at women in intimate female spaces. Women need a level of comfort and protection just doing daily tasks, this is being erased. Women have a right to privacy. Women need protected spaces.

I think most women would understand a father taking his daughters into a womens toilet.

Then they need to wake up and understand the safeguarding implications of normalising men in women's spaces. You haven't addressed that at all. Spaces where men and women are in states of complete or partial undress are segregated by sex for very good reason.

There is not one single reason why you would need to bring your husband and kids into the ladies.

It’s bathroom for women. Not a day out activity for the family.

At a relatively young age, girls into ladies on a day out with their father/grandfather/uncle etc. Other men going into the ladies makes it less safe... (and incidentally why I understand mums of boys want to keep them with them throughout primary school ages). The only reason a man should enter should be an emergency.

This is another argument fir gender neutral toilets in addition to toilets segregated by sex.

Lingerie departments are always going to be tricky as men are just as entitled to buy as women.

Snort

Yep.

I think most women would understand a father taking his daughters into a womens toilet

I disagree - both with your “most women” and a father being in the Ladies. There’s absolutely no need. If he’s with his wife or a female relative, they take the girls in and the father waits outside, maybe having each girl sent out to him as they finish. If he’s by himself, he either takes them into the Mens or, depending on the girls’ ages, sends them into the Ladies alone while waiting outside, or, as suggested above, alerts a woman going in so she can keep an eye on them. This does not mean in the actual cubicle!! I can’t believe you said they’d be taking their pants down in front of a stranger - they most definitely wouldn’t!

Ladies loos are for women. It’s irrelevant whether I or you personally wouldn’t mind a man in there. If a single woman objects, that’s enough - and many do.

And I agree - the husbands going into women’s toilets are definitely the weird ones.

DH wouldn’t do it in a million years.

No way, no how.

Very good.

The thread is about the current erosion of women's rights. My grandfather's generation and my father's generation, wouldn't have dreamed of going into a ladies and just standing there while a woman urinates. Would never have happened. Yes, there was sexism in spades, but at least a woman could tend to her menstrual hygiene in peace! We need to preserve women's spaces.

Crikey, I couldn’t even have a woman peering over my shoulder if I was rinsing out a mooncup.

As a woman too I know that you can spot a creep, but you can't assume all men are.

And that's exactly why all men are supposed to be banned from women-only spaces. None of the men in my life are creeps, and none of them would want to go into a women's toilet or changing room. The only way you keep sexual predators out is by banning all men. All decent men respect this.

This never used to be questioned. You can tell the gender identity movement is a male supremacist campaign, because its demands undermine women's rights.

I kept seeing this thread title but only moseyed over when it popped up on my Twitter tl.

The only issue i have with the man in the toilet with 2 kids is "wash hands and get out of the way". There isn't space to loiter around the sinks.

But look. I realise people have issues around noises they make in public toilets. People really really need to get over that. So you rustle, fart, splatter or pee loudly? So what. You probably don't know anyone in there and won't see them again. So why not rustle the tampon wrapper and get on with it? The only problem you'd have then is potentially wanting to get to the sinks with bloody hands. Again, why is that a problem for you? he's the one exposing himself to that, so tough tits. The female daughters may as well see it, it's their future.

Everything else in the OP makes my eyes roll so much. It's knickers and bras. Concentrate on what you're doing and don't worry about anyone else? The bra department of John Lewis isn't a "female space" it is a public space, and men buy things there for their wives, girlfriends and maybe even themselves. It's not really a problem. If you really want a man free bra buying experience, IME you get that in a lingerie shop.

It is difficult to take things seriously if conversations like this are plastered all over the place as examples of women's overreactions to everything.

Hallelujah! A sensible voice! Thank you!!

So could you.

Men have as much right to shop in-person as you do. The lingerie department of a shop is not a female-only space any more than the men’s underwear department is a male-only one.

gosh i so rarely get called sensible i nearly blushed

I forgot to say this

It was the ladies toilets, he should not have been in there at all. It's funny how the women's toilet becomes the default for anyone who doesn't fancy using the men's. If helping two children go to the toilet required both parents then they could just as easily have used the men's but they didn't and they never do.

Look at any one of the eleventy million threads about swimming pool changing rooms. No child, boy or girl, is ever ever ever allowed in the men's changing room. And even boys up to 10 and 11 are routinely taken into the women's by their mothers and the rest of us have to suck it up (even when the boys are looking at your boobs and saying "boobies" as people have reported on those threads) because GOD FORBID any child be potentially be exposed to a man in a state of even partial deshabilé (sp?)

The answer is, surely, gender free toilets. One toilet for all, and accessible toilets for those who need them (and many more of them please). No urinals, just stalls for all (and yes, i realise that cameras under and over may be an issue here - I'm guessing there is a way round that because so many other places have them).

I also get that there may be a cultural/religious/trauma related reason that women don't like gender free/neutral toilets. Accessble, self contained toilets, are a possible solution to that (because unless confronted with sound accurate numbers that say they would be overwhelmed i will assume the numbers of these people are relatively small.)

I am the biggest gender critical person I know but even I would not bat an eye at a man in a department store lingerie department. Caveat - unless he was obviously there staring at women shoppers or getting "excited" by the merchandise!
Honestly it has never occurred to me to think specific section of department stores were "female only". It's nothing like toilets IMO - you are not performing intimate and private functions in the middle of a department store.
Men have as much right to shop there. Only this weekend my husband took me to one to pick out some underwear as a gift. I never considered that his presence might be upsetting other women. I have shopped many times in underwear sections of large department stores at the same time as men, and never once felt like they were intruding upon a female only experience or a female only space.
If you are that protective over your underwear shopping I would suggest buying online.
Would men get upset at a woman shopping for her husband or partner in the boxing shorts / Y fronts section?
I don't get the outrage at this at all, and I'm all for protecting female spaces - I just don't think this IS one.
CHANGING ROOM of said department store - ABSOLUTELY.
SHOP FLOOR? - Nope.

FFS. There are many reasons for men being in lingere departments. If you think someone is acting suspiciously go to the staff and they will have a discreet word. A department store isn't a "woman's space".

It is these reactions that make people point and laugh. Really.

The lingerie department is not a female-only space. It is not “yours”, and men have as much right to be in it as you do.

If you can’t handle men being in an area they are fully entitled to be in them the problem is yours, and no-one should be expected to change what they are doing to accommodate your irrational needs.

Women’s toilets are a female-only space. The bras and knickers section in M&S isn’t.

Then you’ll either have to get over it or shop on the internet.

If you think that there are other people with similar neuroses though you could set up a female-only underwear shop just for them.

“I think most women would understand a father taking his daughters into a womens toilet”

No, they wouldn’t. It’s not necessary and we have coped for decades without it.

I work as a childminder with my DH. We have 6 under 5s between us. We still manage taking them to the toilet without the necessity of my DH enter