Page 27 | LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

pombear · 2022-06-10T19:29:56+00:00

Fantastic news. I would link to their Twitter announcement, but in usual state of play, Twitter has marked it ' may not be appropriate for people under 18'. A helpline planned for 13 to 25 year olds, planned by a panel of experts in child protection, education, helpline delivery, fundraising and psychology. Yep - shut them down (much better to have helplines planned by IT workers who took their child to Thailand...) As LGB Alliance state there is no dedicated national service of its kind for young LGB people in the UK. I'm sure the Lottery Fund will be getting a lot of feedback right now, given the outpouring of hyperbole against LGB Alliance right now on Twitter. So they may appreciate feedback from those who may see this as a positive move too: ""We really value your feedback. If you have a comment or complaint about the services that we provide, or if there's something important you think we should know, we'd love to hear it. Please email us at customer.services@tnlcommunityfund.org.uk"

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 18:43

sowiwag · 19/06/2022 15:30

Non-sequitur.

Once again (with feeling!). Being gay is different from being trans:

-If a man sincerely says "I am gay", he is telling the truth. (Because to feel attracted to someone is to be attracted to that person ... etc.)
-If a man sincerely says "I am trans", he is mistaken: not about being trans, but about the entailed claim, "I am a woman". (Because human beings can't change sex ...)
Of course, you could deny that entailment. I'm not sure you want to, though, do you, Hearach15?

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They used to say two women or two men couldn't be parents together and the world got used to that idea.

As for the idea that trans women aren't women, well, that may be your view but thankfully is isn't the law.

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 18:45

Lightorchestral · 18/06/2022 09:20

An lgba helpline really aren't going to tell any trans kids who who aren't sure that they really are trans, they will tell them they are gay or lesbian

I would hope they would, as Helen Joyce said...

We need to reduce the amount of people who transition as they are a huge problem to a sane world.

I agree with this, it's the reason I support the LGB Alliance.

Refreshing honesty - the LGB Alliance is all about having a go at trans people.

(And this it is so reviled in the LGBT community).

DeaconBoo · 19/06/2022 18:46

When you say "trans women are women", unless you can define what you mean by "woman" then you do realise it's an entirely meaningless phrase, right? You might as well say "trans klegds are klegds". No-one has a clue what it is you are saying they are.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 19/06/2022 18:50

Hearach, are you going to comment on Nancy Kelley’s homophobic description of lesbians as sexual racists?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 19/06/2022 18:55

DeaconBoo · 19/06/2022 18:46

When you say "trans women are women", unless you can define what you mean by "woman" then you do realise it's an entirely meaningless phrase, right? You might as well say "trans klegds are klegds". No-one has a clue what it is you are saying they are.

I'd settle for a definition of 'trans' at this point. or 'gender'. or a definition of 'woman gender' or man 'gender'

LGBA really does bring the frothers out.

oquin · 19/06/2022 21:18

OhHolyJesus · 19/06/2022 17:50

Bev and Kate will be on GB News with Andrew Doyle tonight and it will be good to hear more about the helpline from them directly.

twitter.com/bevjacksonauth/status/1538560409061441536?s=21&t=S0mcdW_WmKOmKFlgTUH2qg

I saw this in the GB News replies yesterday, fairly typical of their viewers.

LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

MaudeYoung · 19/06/2022 21:44

@Hearach15 "As for the idea that trans women aren't women, well, that may be your view but thankfully is isn't the law."

In the UK, that is exactly what our law says: so-called "transwomen" are men - this is what is written in UK law. This is what the UK's Gender Recognition Act 2004 actually says.

Read sections 12, 15, 16 and 19

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Beyond that the UK Equality Act 2010 clearly distinguishes between the protected characteristics of sex and so-called "gender reassignment".

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 19/06/2022 22:00

oquin · 19/06/2022 21:18

I saw this in the GB News replies yesterday, fairly typical of their viewers.

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Do you ever wonder why trans activists protest women meeting, and demonise women, when it's always been men who were most hostile to male transitioners? And it still is?

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:22

Pluvia · 16/06/2022 22:22

Take yourself down to a gay bar and chat with a few of the locals.

What century are you living in? There have been no gay bars since the mid-noughties, when straight people began to take them over. I can remember going down Canal Street in 2008 and in every lesbian bar there was at least one transwoman, too often standing alone and glowering in a corner.

Funny because I was in one last night.

I will admit I started going to gay bars in the 2010s (so cannot say if what they were like in the 2000s) but they've always been trans inclusive and I've never met anyone there who had a problem with that. 😀

sowiwag · 19/06/2022 22:25

Hearach15:
"They used to say two women or two men couldn't be parents together and the world got used to that idea."

Irrelevant. Gay is different to trans. They used to say the earth couldn't go round the sun and the world got used to that idea. Equally irrelevant. ... Oh, look. The point is obvious. Trans isn't the same as gay. How many times do we have to go over the same thing?

Hearach15:
"As for the idea that trans women aren't women, well, that may be your view but thankfully is isn't the law."

Sophistry.

The law says trans women are women (if it even does) in the same way the law says corporations are persons. This is a very attenuated sense of 'woman' and 'person' at best, and certainly not enough to bear the weight Hearach15 wants to put on it here - unless, that is, the claim of a man to be a woman in the trans case is to be taken in just this attenuated sense.

My mother was a woman. Hearach15's mother was too. Everybody's mother was a woman. All of us who understand English understand those claims - so a fortiori we all understand the sense of 'woman' used in them. In this - everyday - sense of 'woman', a man who says he is a woman is mistaken. A mistake of this genre cannot be made by a man who sincerely claims to be gay, because ... well, once again, because for a man to feel he is attracted to someone is just for him to be attracted to that person, whereas for a man to feel he is a woman is for him to be mistaken.

Not only is this everyday sense the important sense just here, it would be simply bizarre to claim all the nonsense about 'transwomen are women' to be merely about 'women' in the attenuated sense in which ASDA is a person. I'm sure Hearach15 doesn't want to claim no more than that meagre truism. But, well, that's the best she can do, so ... well, so the usual sophistical equivocation.

-And, of course (legal, schmegal?) ... a law can say The Earth Cannot Move all it likes. Eppur si muove. Hein? Laws can't change facts of nature. (Or analytic truths, for that matter. Take your pick.)

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:26

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 11:05

What has Stonewall achieved in the UK since LGB Alliance's creation just for LGB people (despite having the amazing goodwill and power that they have earned for decades).

Incidentally, strange that you are so keen to detach the work that may have even been done by the founders of LGB Alliance from the result (after many years of campaigning) that was finally achieved. I actually cannot work that one out. Do you believe that it was only actions from those in Stonewall over the past 3 years that brought about that final result??

And, of course, nothing at all to do with any action from any of those in the LGB Alliance.

But as amazing as it was that people were rescued from Afghanistan, we are of course, focused on the UK. And the continued mention of it is a bit of a squirrel distraction.

So, you have again mentioned a success that the founders of LGB Alliance was most likely involved in.

Anything else? Just for LGB people in the UK?

Yes, they were rescued from Afghanistan and brought to Britain thanks to the coordinated efforts of Her Majesty's Government and Stonewall.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/10/30/britain-afghan-lgbt-refugees/

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:29

RhinestoneCow · 17/06/2022 12:19

"Should a pro-choice org go to a conference hosted by a Government seeking to restrict access to abortion?"

I'd say it was essential for them to attend.

What's your alternative? Put your fingers in your ears and hope it will all turn out ok?

When a transwoman attended the LGBA conference last year she was treated appallingly with a man screaming in her face that she shouldn't be there.

Sad but unsurprising, the LGB Alliance is a very transphobic group.

TW: Transphobia:

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/comedy/news/jen-ives-lgb-alliance-video-b2042053.html

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:31

Artichokeleaves · 17/06/2022 14:25

When a transwoman attended the LGBA conference last year she was treated appallingly with a man screaming in her face that she shouldn't be there.

If that's true - and at this point I'm honestly past the point of asking for evidence because there never is any - would you like to compare it to how the homosexual people who want to be homosexual without TQ+ dominance, harassment, exclusion and repression have been treated by those acting in the name of TQ+ politics?

The barbed wire wrapped baseball bats for beating them that were so proudly held by males in blood stained t shirts?

The death threats?

The corrective rape threats?

The symbols and threats of lynching?

The throwing out of lesbians from Pride?

Every single women's rights meeting that has dealt with kettling, screaming, hammering on the doors and walls, people in balaclavas controlling access, false reports to the police trying to get them arrested, the 60 year old woman who was punched, the smoke bomb set off near Grenfell towers?

Fgs, your double standards are ridiculous.

A very upsetting read but not surprising from that group:

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/comedy/news/jen-ives-lgb-alliance-video-b2042053.html

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:32

Lovelyricepudding · 17/06/2022 15:43

It's like NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all of us.

There were good reasons why Ukraine was not admitted to NATO

Ukraine is paying a heavy price for not being in NATO right now.

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:34

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 15:44

It's like NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all of us.

If you haven't heard of the word 'solidarity' I suggest you google it.

You don't show 'solidarity' by not attending conferences and events or having discussions with other groups or individuals that you disagree with.

This is how 'echo chambers' are created and how group think eventuates.

A mature approach is to continue to engage with respect and ensure that the organisation's voice is heard and that lines of communication are left open.

I really do see now that when some posters who visit FWR, not necessarily on this thread, start accusing MN of being echo chambers, they really are projecting.

Boycotts have long had a role in campaigns of solidarity.

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:38

Helleofabore · 18/06/2022 02:01

Once again, I have never opposed support for LGB people. What concerns me about the LGBAlliance in particular is that if a young trans person phones them for help (mistaking them for an inclusive lgbt+ helpline) they are highly unlikely to receive UN-biased help, they won't immediately be re-directed to a more inclusive helpline but will no doubt get the usual lgba spiel of "more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay", which is no help to a young trans person.

Why would a trans person be calling LGB Alliance helpline for help or advice about a trans issue? And if a trans person called about a LGB issue, why wouldn’t the person provide ‘UNbiased’ help?

You can provide no evidence for your claim that LGB Alliance would either NOT refer them immediately to a helpline that is more suitable for the unique need of that trans person if they are not calling about an LGB issue, OR would say anything about ‘more likely to grow up as lesbian or gay’.

Instead, you have continued to make hugely prejudiced claims. You have accused an organisation of being unable to provide a service for LGB young people on LGB issues, to the same standard as any other LGB only group, yet you don’t seem to be able to link up one shred of evidence to support your claim.

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"You can provide no evidence for your claim that LGB Alliance would either NOT refer them immediately to a helpline that is more suitable for the unique need of that trans person"

This cuts to the heart of it. We already have a Switchboard that caters to LGBT people that would be able to help an upset or confused young trans person.

What LGBA are proposing is an inferior service that excludes trans people. thus it is a waste of time and money and I am looking forward to seeing it go down the plughole.

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:44

MaudeYoung · 19/06/2022 21:44

@Hearach15 "As for the idea that trans women aren't women, well, that may be your view but thankfully is isn't the law."

In the UK, that is exactly what our law says: so-called "transwomen" are men - this is what is written in UK law. This is what the UK's Gender Recognition Act 2004 actually says.

Read sections 12, 15, 16 and 19

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Beyond that the UK Equality Act 2010 clearly distinguishes between the protected characteristics of sex and so-called "gender reassignment".

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

Funny you say that because a trans woman can get a British passport that says they are a woman and a trans man one that says they are a man 😀

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:45

sowiwag · 19/06/2022 22:25

Hearach15:
"They used to say two women or two men couldn't be parents together and the world got used to that idea."

Irrelevant. Gay is different to trans. They used to say the earth couldn't go round the sun and the world got used to that idea. Equally irrelevant. ... Oh, look. The point is obvious. Trans isn't the same as gay. How many times do we have to go over the same thing?

Hearach15:
"As for the idea that trans women aren't women, well, that may be your view but thankfully is isn't the law."

Sophistry.

The law says trans women are women (if it even does) in the same way the law says corporations are persons. This is a very attenuated sense of 'woman' and 'person' at best, and certainly not enough to bear the weight Hearach15 wants to put on it here - unless, that is, the claim of a man to be a woman in the trans case is to be taken in just this attenuated sense.

My mother was a woman. Hearach15's mother was too. Everybody's mother was a woman. All of us who understand English understand those claims - so a fortiori we all understand the sense of 'woman' used in them. In this - everyday - sense of 'woman', a man who says he is a woman is mistaken. A mistake of this genre cannot be made by a man who sincerely claims to be gay, because ... well, once again, because for a man to feel he is attracted to someone is just for him to be attracted to that person, whereas for a man to feel he is a woman is for him to be mistaken.

Not only is this everyday sense the important sense just here, it would be simply bizarre to claim all the nonsense about 'transwomen are women' to be merely about 'women' in the attenuated sense in which ASDA is a person. I'm sure Hearach15 doesn't want to claim no more than that meagre truism. But, well, that's the best she can do, so ... well, so the usual sophistical equivocation.

-And, of course (legal, schmegal?) ... a law can say The Earth Cannot Move all it likes. Eppur si muove. Hein? Laws can't change facts of nature. (Or analytic truths, for that matter. Take your pick.)

Not really, that's why it's called the LGBT community. There's a lot of common overlap. 😀

Hearach15 · 19/06/2022 22:50

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Starlee · 20/06/2022 00:18

Conflictedunicorn · 18/06/2022 05:29

@starlee so you say as a non trans person you cannot understand how a transperson feels. So how could a male understand what is I’d to ‘feel like a woman? No male is a woman and no female is a man. Are you claiming transpeople have magical powers not gifted to the rest of us poor mortals, or are you starting to realise that this cannot be possible.

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They understand how they feel because they are transgender, we don't know how they feel, we just have to be open-minded enough to accept that people know who they are, not who you tell them they are.
And no, I'm not "starting to realise that this cannot be possible." because I know it is, I have seen it for myself. Maybe you will see it yourself one day, you never know who, in your own circle of family and friends, might be in the closet.

Starlee · 20/06/2022 00:31

ZombieMumEB · 18/06/2022 06:12

@Starlee
No I don't believe in a 'greater being' as in a god etc, but I do believe there is a soul, essence, that inner being or whatever you choose to call it that makes a person uniquely them.

So, a personality?

@Conflictedunicorn
@starlee so you say as a non trans person you cannot understand how a transperson feels. So how could a male understand what is I’d to ‘feel like a woman?
One of the many areas where applying logic and critical thinking skills to the TRA trope, shows how it's all horseshit nonsense.

I keep being told by certain people on here that Mumsnet is not anti-trans, how most people here support trans people, that Mumsnet is one of the "most trans friendly places online", then I read more posts like yours saying it's all "horseshit nonsense." Someone here is not being truthful.

Starlee · 20/06/2022 00:43

334bu · 18/06/2022 08:58

Or maybe Starlee really believes that same sex attracted women can be " converted" to being attracted to the opposite sex?

I know lesbians who have fallen for trans women. I know previously straight people who have met someone of the same sex and fallen for them, it can happen to anyone.
I don't believe conversion therapy works so they cannot be forced to be attracted to anyone, but people are free to adjust their preferences to suit themselves whenever they like. Unless you're so hung up on 'labels' you'd deny yourself a chance of happiness in order to stick to strict 'rules'.

Starlee · 20/06/2022 01:43

Artichokeleaves · 18/06/2022 09:23

An lgba helpline really aren't going to tell any trans kids who who aren't sure that they really are trans, they will tell them they are gay or lesbian which can only cause harm to the trans kids.

Well it's taken 23 pages but we got there in the end.

The actual problem is that your prejudice about any group not controlled by TQ+ politics makes you concerned that they may, possibly, theoretically, at some point tell a theoretical TQ+ child something not straight from the TQ+ politics handbook.

However you're absolutely fine with TQ+ politically controlled helplines and groups who have guided LGB kids into transition who later regretted it because they were LGB and not TQ+ (Keira Bell being one) and did extensive, permanent harm to themselves on the way, and of the TQ+ controlled politics harassing LGB people to not be homosexual and teaching LGB kids that being homosexual is racist and they must learn to cope with and train themselves to be attracted to heterosexual sex rather than ever distress a TQ+ person by being homosexual and therefore having a boundary that a TQ+ person may not like.

Your homophobia and your unequal standards and your prejudice is baffling. This is actual bigotry. You're not prepared for LGB people to be permitted anything at all of their own voice, their own resources, to go their own way, they must obey, conform and submit to TQ+ politics or they shouldn't be allowed to exist. Or talk to LGB kids.

I find this quite disturbing.

It also comes up again and again, this belief that TQ+ people are so much more precious and valuable and important and priority than just LGB kids. Or women. Or children who need safeguarding. And it is fine for those mere mortals to be collateral damage, to have less, to be made to experience things that TQ+ people must never be expected to suffer. What is this? Why are LGB kids ok to be props in TQ+ politics, to be exposed to full on conversion beliefs, and the effects on them fine, but TQ+ kids even theoretically must never risk hearing that there are other options and choices and views out there?

Your whole post is absolute waffle and proves you haven't really taken in anything I've said, you twist it all to what you wrongly assume I mean.

Your claim that "The actual problem is that your prejudice ... makes you concerned that they may, possibly, theoretically, at some point tell a theoretical TQ+ child" is wrong. I specifically mentioned a trans child, one who is still confused and needs help, not a 'theoretical' child'.
Someone telling that trans child that they're more likley to be lgb is harmful to a trans child, every bit of harmful as telling an lgb child that they're really trans, which lgbtq helplines DO NOT DO whatever GC groups claim.

You keep accusing me of homophobia, so again you don't listen. I am bisexual, last time I looked that was part of the lgb community. "You're not prepared for LGB people to be permitted anything at all of their own voice, their own resources, to go their own way, they must obey, conform and submit to TQ+ politics or they shouldn't be allowed to exist. Or talk to LGB kids." All absolute BS.

"this belief that TQ+ people are so much more precious and valuable and important and priority than just LGB kids. Or women." Where have I ever even suggested that? Not only am I bisexual I am also a woman, who has fought for women's rights for the last 50 years. So even more BS from you. That fact that I am supportive of trans people like my daughter doesn't mean I'm not supportive of people like myself.

You should really find all this "quite disturbing." how you are wrong in so many of your assumptions.

"Why are LGB kids ok to be props in TQ+ politics, to be exposed to full on conversion beliefs, and the effects on them fine, but TQ+ kids even theoretically must never risk hearing that there are other options and choices and views out there?"
Simply ridiculous. Conversion beliefs? Have you not been following the news? It is the trans people who are to be excluded from the ban, we will be covered (although actually the LGBAlliance is against the ban for all, lgb included!).
And you really think there are "other options and choices" out there for trans kids? Like what, like not being trans and 'just' being lgb instead? Conversion 'therapy' then.

Starlee · 20/06/2022 01:59

Helleofabore · 18/06/2022 09:26

it's always such a wonderful inclusive celebration and protest, based on love, inclusiveness, unity, community, LGBTQ+ all happy together and supported by the general public, just how it could always be 😎

Coming back to this then. Should we post the collection of quotes from transitioned males that start to disprove this rather fanciful and not just a little propaganda like statement.

And I think the sunglasses will be needed if we get even a small % of the quotes down due to the bright light being focused on just how some transitioned males feel about females in general, and sometimes lesbians in particular.

All wonderfully inclusive. Because I don’t think they exclude any female, nor any lesbian if the quote is about lesbians. Just wonderful hate being spread equally.

Or are we to believe it is love and that the targeted women should feel happy they are so targeted? Like DARVO in action.

The first has already been mention on this thread,

McKinnon in regards to lesbians not wanting sex with a penis : ‘Other times, the cis lesbian gets over her genital hangups and realizes that she can cope just fine’ (2016)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook

I will post some more later and I am sure others will find more too.

There is a particularly disturbing quote from some one called Alok about ‘kinky little girls’… and the one from Long Chou about females being expectant arseholes and empty empty eyes…. And a transitioned male called Jane Fae who supports extreme porn, who reckons many murders of female partners is because they have eggshell skulls.

These are not ‘no ones’ either by the way. These are not random anonymous or even not anonymous people posting shit on the internet. These are lauded spokespeople for the trans community.

Part of the community we are being told is wonderfully inclusive and full of love…

Except that it is not true really.

So now you're telling me I shouldn't enjoy pride events? Nothing you can post can "disprove this rather fanciful and not just a little propaganda like statement." it is a statement of my opinion of pride events, who on earth do you think you are to 'disprove' that?

And wasn't it you who keeps telling me how supportive this forum is of trans people? Try reading your comment again and tell me you're trans supportive!

I really have nothing else to say to you, you have been rude and arrogant all the way through, twisting what I say and resorting to insults while pretending to be oh so much more educated than the "poorly educated" trans community!

Starlee · 20/06/2022 02:18

BonitaApple · 18/06/2022 09:54

Yes @Starlee, the LGBA helpline will dissuade children who think they're trans - that's the whole point of it!

Yes I know that. And yet the previous 20 or so pages have been insisting that the lgba WON'T be dissuading trans kids, that they'll be totally fair and UNbiased. 🙄