Waitrose delivery driver

[MsMoorhead]

Kellie Jay-Keen reported by her Waitrose delivery driver!

Yes, and how well did division by sex work out for women? You seem to be forgetting that the purpose and outcome of division was sex was the oppression of women.

The "division" in that sentence referred to recognising the biological differences between the sexes, and providing separate facilities for the two sexes when required. This is a feminist part of a predominantly women's board, so it would be surprising if anyone here was advocating for further oppression of women.

As for division “by gender identity” why would we even consider that?

That's what people who identify as the opposite sex want. See men who want to compete in women's sports, be housed in women's prisons, take part in schemes to promote women in politics or science.

They insist that they should be included in these events not because of their sex, as that is clearly male, but because of their gender identity.

They are quite specifically not requesting a lack of division between men and women, they just want the division to be by gender identity.

It was obvious from her video that she was transphobic which I watched before my first post. She spends most of the time in the video ranting against transwomen, although she calls them “men” and “these men”.

Again, your problem with kJK seems to be that she is honest and won't lie. Integrity used to be a virtue once.

Hopefully this grubby period where dishonesty is lauded will soon pass.

I can’t wait. Can’t believe at nearly 50 I have to pretend to agree with mad wrong ideas to avoid being labelled a bigot 🙄

Hopefully this grubby period where dishonesty is lauded will soon pass.
Can't come soon enough for me.

In the swimming pool, KJK was objecting, like many others, to a genetic male swimming in the female races, thus displacing a female from the event. Was she outspoken? Yes. Was she protesting loudly? Yes.

If Lia(r) Thomas didn't anticipate a hostile reaction from some people, it suggests they're not clever enough for university.

Your other point really disturbs me, re you quoting her saying that she hates trans people. Of course you can provide a link to confirm this? You will, I'm sure, be able to do that.

Well, go on then. A coherent and logical definition of gender identity.

Like many others I know what the effects of a person holding one is, but I have no real idea of what it is because I have been told, forcefully, often, that it is not an idea based on stereotypes but rather it is summink summink - and that last bit never actually males sense. Usually because what is described is stereotypes but is said to be, well, summink summink

If you can unravel that I would be far better informed than when I went to sleep last night!

She spends most of the time in the video ranting against transwomen, although she calls them “men” and “these men”.

Because that is who she is talking about. Men.

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is
Well I did ask, I offered you any language too.
Please be a love and answer, coherently, non circular definition.
Weve been waiting a very long time for this answer.
We are all holding our breath that you finally can give us the holy grail of answers, we can then agree with you, all the angst will be over and life can return to nor.

No pressure tho.

Sigh, normal not nor

Are we finally going to get a coherent and stable definition of what ‘gender’ is, along with ‘gender identity’?

I am ready!

There needs to be a proper investigation by waitrose.

An employee that is a delivery person, should under no circumstances try to bring their personal beliefs up when dealing with a customer. It's just so unprofessional.

Their behaviour with KJK has red flags all over it. There is just something so creepy and threatening by a male who refuses to leave immediately when asked by a female, and when he said he'd take his time - he was asserting his entitle male power.

He should have left immediately, to de-escalate the situation. I guess it was hard due to his over-inflated male ego?

Checking in for the promised coherent explanation of 'gender identity'. Double points if it does not involve stereotypes.

Random pointer to the origin in a 1968 book.

“It is a working term,” Robert Stoller said of his creation in 1968. “We need hardly insist on the holiness of the term “gender identity.”” Half a century later, gender identity had everywhere been pronounced holy, sanctified with legal sponsorship, draped in royal purple.

twitter.com/FrancisAaronUK/status/1415330964406996999

The book: Sex and Gender: The Development of Masculinity and Femininity

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B084WM99MQ?

I’ll take my time

So… he’s not planning to leave immediately? So… he’s planning to do something else before he leaves? What is he planning to do?

The threat is clear as day. What an absolute psycho. Him, and the people who’ve spent 22 pages arguing it wasn’t a threat.

Can we deduct points for circular reasoning?

But can we add a bonus point for the liberal use of ‘literally’? I find that quite entertaining.

The threat is clear as day.

Yes. But the polarisation is clear. The threat is downplayed, but the alleged misgendering is dialed up to fire alarm level.

The usual tactics are very clearly in use on this thread.

I find it strange that Discovereads has managed to come to so many conclusions from KJK's video considering how ranting and incoherent it supposedly is.

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is.

And yet...

discovereads, you haven't described gender identity. You cant.

Not least because it means different things to different people. It shifts and changes. And some people have it, some people don't, some people have it and then don't. Some people never have it. Other people acquire it and then discard it. Some people are born with it, some people aren't. Some men claim it's because they want to be like the 'mean girls in Hollywood movies' , others like eg Jacob Tobia claim it's because they want to be sexually objectified. One memorable person on here said they wanted it, because without it they could not be 'vibrant'

There are countless articles and entire books written about gender identity by scientists, philosophers, journalists

Yeah, I'm not really surprised.

Not that that you’ve ever asked, but I can describe to you what gender identity is
Pmsl at the sheer irony of posting this, and then... failing to be able to describe it.

Hope you’ve got a comfy chair and a pile of snacks …..

A gender identity cannot be defined. All that can be defined is what people who claim to have a gender identity seem to mean by it.

People who claim to have a gender identity seem to be claiming to have a gendered soul that exists separately to their sexed body. Or they are claiming that their brain's distress at their sexed body proves that their internal sense of gender is reality, not actual reality. Either way this soul or feeling is an incredibly important thing that defines them and proves that - simultaneously - they must be treated just like everyone else whilst being lauded as truly special because of their decision to announce their claim that they have a gender identity.

The implications of this seem to be that this gendered soul or gender dysphoric brain should matter more to society and everyone in it than the physical and unchangeable reality of the person's sexed body. This is the main problem with the insane TRA position. Even if it were true that everyone had a gendered soul that existed separately from their sexed body, or that gender dysphoric people are happiest if they are constantly affirmed, this does not mean that the vast majority of ordinary people should have their rights [that is to be segregated by sex in places such as toilets and sports and single-sex advocacy / support groups for all sorts of almost univeraslly accepted good reasons] removed.

A gender identity is basically very similar to a religious belief. Both are entirely relevant to the individual concerned and to other believers, whilst being absolutely meaningless to others. Everyone else has every right to ignore or mock the belief and assert truth - so long as they don't move beyond ignoring or mocking and start abusing or harrassing.

Explaining one's political views in your own home, in repose to someone else inappropriately bring up politics in the course of their job servicing the needs of customers, is not abuse or harrassment.

Thanks for this Discovereads, I too would love to hear your definition of what gender identity is. I base my current position on what I have been able to find out about gender ideology, but gender identity has been a bit of a tricky one to understand for me. I told ds that I didn't have a gender identity as he had been having some LGBT lessons in PHSE and he asked me what things I liked and how I felt about myself and once I'd answered said that meant my gender identity was 'woman'. I pointed out that no one knows how anyone else feels, seeing as it is personal to the individual who is feeling those feelings and that the rest was stereotypes and if I preferred 'man' things would that make me a man?

Luckily he has said that gender ideology has been taught as belief not fact at his school (year 7).

@discovereads

One more thing. Can you recommend any youtubers or podcasters or bloggers who are able to present the Stonewall / TRA perspective in a coherent, compassionate and persuasive way? My move from "TWAW, #bekind" to "this is exceptionally dangerous on a number of levels and needs stopping now, I will never mis-sex someone again" did come down to a variety of things (good GC arguments, being abused as a bigot for having sexual orientation being two of them). But as much as anything the reason that I now completely reject "TWAW, #bekind" is because no-one on your side has ever presented an even vaguely convincing case. You have offered practically nothing of value on this thread, yet I would honestly say that your ability to construct an argument put you in the Top 5-10% of TRAs, maybe even the Top 1%.

Can you point me to some videos etc that might change my mind?