Waitrose delivery driver

[MsMoorhead]

Kellie Jay-Keen reported by her Waitrose delivery driver!

My interpretation of the Forstater Tribunal is that is has made reasonably clear that you can't harrass work colleagues. Deliberately and consistently misgendering them for example. I'm also sure that you can't go around abusing random trans people in the street. No-one has any reason to go up to random people and deliberately misgender them.

But it didn't say that you have to affirm trans people, nor are you compelled to lie if a man with long hair wants to chat trans issues with you, especially on your own property. I fully intend to never again acknowledge someone's gender identity, because I think it is harmful to them and society to do so. I believe this can be done politely. The law is on my side IMO.

My interpretation of the Forstater Tribunal is that is has made reasonably clear that you can't harrass work colleagues. Deliberately and consistently misgendering them for example. I'm also sure that you can't go around abusing random trans people in the street. No-one has any reason to go up to random people and deliberately misgender them.
But it didn't say that you have to affirm trans people, nor are you compelled to lie if a man with long hair wants to chat trans issues with you, especially on your own property
Oh see, I was with you until you started on about "man with long hair" and I started to tune out.
Where to start?
You were there, were you?
What's the length of somebody's hair got to do with anything?
.

What's the length of somebody's hair got to do with anything?

Because the driver looked like a man with long hair, with no other signifiers that the driver was not a man, to KJK, obviously.

I have occasional deliveries from keynsham branch and believe I have probably met the same delivery person. I recognised Kellie-Jay's description of a not obviously trans person until I read their name badge with a typically female name (standard uniform and longish hair). We had a perfectly pleasant doorstep exchange but i was a little guarded as I didn't want to assume they were trans or wanted to be addressed as she/her if that was an assumption on my part. It didn't crop up in a first person conversation.

I suppose with Kellie-Jay, the WAHF thing is her trade mark. She wears it on t shirts, puts it on a billboard etc. It does invite the kind of conversations which most people tiptoe around trying to avoid but she is willing to have in the public sphere, and doesn't mince her words. However, when someone is receiving a service in their own home, they don't expect to have their political values questioned or analysed.

I presume the driver knew the associations with the dictionary definition of woman and therefore was picking an argument by saying "so that includes transwomen then" or whatever the exact words were. I would have sympathy with the driver if the customer had spontaneously told them to stay out of womens spaces or whatever, but the driver overstepped at the point of opening the conversation and then didn't like the response.

I would never dream of doing anything like this in my line of work which involves visiting people in their homes.

This hair thing is an interesting one. Seems biological men in the news in relation to being trans love having long hair. Almost like they have a thing with it. That would be Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Caitlin Jenner. Same as the delivery driver. So before you go on about mumsneters noticing it, is it not done to be noticed. Oddly I would have thought short hair was an advantage in top class cycling and swimming.

It is very plain that kJK misgenders her, calls her a man

Yes. After explaining that she didn't think anything of it, the delivery drive was a man with long hair, didn't see the name badge with a female name until a bit later.

Because men look like men, move like men, are male bodied. Nothing hides that. So the vast majority of transwomen are always going to be 'misgendered', especially when in motion. There is nothing that can be done about that as restructuring the pelvic girdle isn't an available surgery.

All transwomen are male. That is factual.

Oh, House of Lords, referred to upthread I think, paraphrased: No individual going about their every day business is going to be arrested for not recognising the gender of a transwoman. Referring to them as he is not an illegal act.

And obviously taking time out of your day to approach them and hassle them is harrassment, just as it would be if you did the same.to anyone else with the same intent to annoy, bother, perturb.

Nobody is saying that some people are not transphobic. But knowing transwomen are male is not.

Not really the case. Listen to the video. The delivery driver says she is not a man and KJK retorts “No, you’re a man…”. It was not accidental misgendering. It was on purpose and said as if KJK were correcting the delivery driver by denying the existence of transwomen as separate from men. And this was before the mention of womens spaces and before KJK mentioned her daughter.

Listen to it yourself, with honest ears.

Quite early on KJK says very clearly that she didn't immediately think anything of it. Just a man with long hair. She didn't immediately see the name badge. That was before anything else was recounted.

You can repeat whatever version of events you like. The video is there, anyone can check and see just how much you are wriggling and changing or ignoring things to suit your own narrative.

And it didn't go unnoticed that you didn't engage with the rest of my post.

Your pony seems only have one trick today!

Kellie Jay campaigns on correctly identifying the male sex. Women have to do this because some males are trying to take spaces and awards from females on the basis that sex doesn't matter.

No-one is under an obligation to adhere to their demands. No-one.

You are now having to defend the position of a male who is intimidating a mother and assuring her that he will be enjoying violating her daughter's boundaries. His has complete confidence in telling her that. To her face, on her own property. Where her daughter could easily be, or overhear. This is the ideology you defend.

What he said is the precise reason why Kellie Jay has the AHF campaign in the first place. His remarks and intimidation tactics proved her point and the need for her campaign, over and over.

And your main complaint is that she wouldn't adhere to the ideology that she specifically campaigns against!

How have you allowed yourself to depart from reality and normality so much Discovereads?

If the only way you (generic you) can make people agree to transgenderism is by force or by arguing them into the ground, it tells you everything you need to know.

Or it should.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist
The rest of your post is misleading. Yes KJK when she first saw the delivery driver she did not know she was a transwoman. True.

But the way you wrote that in response to my saying that KJK misgendered her and called her a man, you implied that it was completely accidental and you started to talk about men look like men, and so on. You were implying that KJK couldn’t have known the delivery driver was a transwoman when KJK misgendered her and called her a man. That it was simply a situation of mistaken identity.

This is deceiving. That’s not what happened, even according to KJK. In the video it is very clear from what KJK recounts that the delivery driver mentioned transwomen and stated definitively to KJK that she was not a man all before KJK deliberately misgenders her and calls her a man.

Yes I agree the video is there for all to listen to themselves. Thank goodness for that.

@Datun
”You are now having to defend the position of a male who is intimidating a mother and assuring her that he will be enjoying violating her daughter's boundaries. His has complete confidence in telling her that. To her face, on her own property. Where her daughter could easily be, or overhear. This is the ideology you defend.”

Im doing no such thing because most of the above is horseshit.

🤣 Smarts doesn't it !

Your definition of horseshit is radically different to mine, then.
But then most of what you say simply doesn't resonate with me in any way, so... 🤷🏻‍♀️

Here's a transcript of the relevant part:

So I had this Waitrose delivery, and then he said “oh what is that?” and I said “oh well I run a campaign defending women’s rights, um, women’s spaces - spaces just for women and girls” and he said “oh that means transwomen are women as well, right?” and I said “well, no, transwomen are men” and they said “oh no, definitely not.” I said “oh 100 ?percent?” Um, and he said “well I’m not, I’m not a man” and I said “well I would probably say you were” um “and I’m just going to say to you, like I say to every uh person that I encounter who calls himself a woman - please don’t use women’s spaces…”

This extract is after the preamble where KJ explains that she initially perceived a male with long hair, it wasn't till later that she read the name tag and saw a typically female name.

If you think that's somehow an actionable set of statements, that it's some kind of hate crime or hate incident, that it's something very serious and very much more than a disagreement then you are massively over stepping what is reasonable.

Women are not required to believe that men are women simply because they state that's the case. If asked about it, women are able to explain their position and explain that they disagree.

Just a reminder

he said he liked using the spaces my teenage daughter uses, including changing rooms and toilets

I don’t think that it’s a hate crime. You people and your hyperbole. I stated KJK was being rude and disrespectful.

No. That is nothing like what I said. What I am saying is that at first there was no assumption about anything. Not that there was a mistake just that she says she didn't think anything at all.

Then the delivery driver begins the conversation, states that the dictionary definition of women on the poster includes transwomen and KJK states her position, as made clear by the posters noted. Transwomen are men, male bodied.

I am not the one trying to obfuscate that.

And again, what you are defending is a man who says he likes being in changing rooms with her daughter, making it plain he feels just fine overstepping her rights, her feelings, those of her daughter. To her face, on her property, in a conversation he initiated.

Yes, however it’s interesting this alleged thing that delivery man is supposed to have said doesn’t appear in her initial account of their spat. It only appears later when she’s dictating her response letter to Waitrose.

It doesn't bloody matter if she was rude or "disrespectful". Seriously? All this because you want women who disagree with you be polite and respectful, according to your judgement?

I don’t think that it’s a hate crime. You people and your hyperbole.

I think you'll find it wasn't "us people" who lobbied to make misgendering a hate crime. A none criminal crime for which a number of men and women have been harangued, questioned under caution, taken to court, lost jobs for.

At least know what it is you are defending.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

“So I had this Waitrose delivery, and then he said “oh what is that?” and I said “oh well I run a campaign defending women’s rights, um, women’s spaces - spaces just for women and girls” and he said “oh that means transwomen are women as well, right?” and I said “well, no, transwomen are men” and they said “oh no, definitely not.” I said “oh 100 ?percent?” Um, and he said “well I’m not, I’m not a man” and I said “well I would probably say you were” um “and I’m just going to say to you, like I say to every uh person that I encounter who calls himself a woman - please don’t use women’s spaces…”

I’m not obfuscating. It’s in the transcript (above) that the delivery driver said they not a man and KJK then immediately calls them a man. She wasn’t merely “stating her position”

Youve interjected yourself into a long running conversation that you have not the faintest clue about.

But that is her position. That adult human males are men. That "woman" is not a category that can be identified into by those born male. That just because this person says they are a woman doesn't make it so. She wasn't rude or hostile in her choice of words in response to his claim. Just disagreed with him. Which of course women are not allowed to do.