I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

[Diagnosticdigressions]

Like lots of parents, I'm having plenty of lively discussions with teen daughter at the moment about the question of whether transwomen are women etc and the complexities of that. Have also had conversations with lesbian friends about the impact of this debate on them. Was somewhat alarmed at the statement from the head of Stonewall recently that seemed to infer that lesbian women who don't date (trans)women are transphobic (I think he also likened it to racism and excluding people from your dating pool on the grounds of ethnicity).

Anyway, it got me thinking about how gay men feel about dating transmen (or just other 'men' if that is your take on it) - specifically those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery? I've not heard anything about that and, based on past conversations with gay friends, I just can't imagine them being up for dating a (trans)man with breasts and female genitalia.

But, I admit I haven't had a conversation like that in many years and maybe times are changing and I'm out of touch. So, where are gay men in all this? This is genuinely not meant as a goady post - I actually don't know and am interested to know why this doesn't seem to get anywhere near the same level of coverage.

Yes, meant to say above — my ftm friend always tells men up front that he’s trans. The last thing he wants is to spring a surprise vagina on anyone, not least because it could lead to violence for him.

I think it's quite common now.

Right, that's interesting (and not at all surprising re Stonewall being incendiary)

OK well, like I say, I'm sorry that is such a common experience on these boards. I get that it must be very wearing. The CEO thing was a genuine mistake (I guess based on the assumption that it was the kind of thing a man would say) but I should have checked.

As for being perplexed, I didn't know that was a thing among fake posters. But it is the right word for how I'm currently feeling about it. To say I'm new to this wasn't totally accurate on reflection because I've been thinking about all the GC stuff since DD1 (who, I can assure you, is very real) started secondary but I am new to this board and therefore not up to speed with the whole landscape. And the more I read, watch, hear about all this, and pick up on more inconsistencies like the stuff I raised in my OP, the more I think it's totally bonkers. And yet DD1 has totally bought into it and there's a very powerful trans orthodoxy among her circle of friends (and even among the teaching staff at her school).

I haven't yet showed her the video. She's quite emotional generally at the moment and last night did not feel like the right time - I'm trying really hard to approach it in a way that doesn't totally break down communication between us on this. These arguments always end with her getting teary and me being absolutely infuriated. So going back last night and saying "and another thing..." would I think have just made her more inclined to bond with the kids at school browsing 'JKR is a TERF' merch. I will show it to her though, along, in time, with a bunch of other stuff that I have saved.

Mr Menno is normally a gentle, funny man (see his other You Tube videos) but on this subject he's really angry. He's supported women and has attended, spoken and sung at various rallies and events. He's one of the gay men who saw what was happening and stepped up early on.

Here's the link to the Break it Down for Me thread while will bring you up to speed.

here it is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

This is ace, thank you

That is just not true though is it. By definition this trans man has only ever dated opposite-SEX attracted or biSEXual men, because a trans man's sex is female.

It is literally impossible for a gay man to want to have sex with a trans man, in the same way as it is literally impossible for an overweight person to be underwieght or a left handed person to be right handed.

As for being perplexed, I didn't know that was a thing among fake posters. But it is the right word for how I'm currently feeling about it. To say I'm new to this wasn't totally accurate on reflection because I've been thinking about all the GC stuff since DD1 (who, I can assure you, is very real) started secondary but I am new to this board and therefore not up to speed with the whole landscape. And the more I read, watch, hear about all this, and pick up on more inconsistencies like the stuff I raised in my OP, the more I think it's totally bonkers. And yet DD1 has totally bought into it and there's a very powerful trans orthodoxy among her circle of friends (and even among the teaching staff at her school).

You sound like me a few years ago :-)

I'm trying to think what's actually changed since then. I suppose back then I thought if I asked enough TRA types, very kindly and genuinely, the right questions, they'd answer them in a way that'd make me understand.

Things like 'so when you say X is a woman, what exactly do you mean a woman is?' 'When you say 'trans' is when your sex doesn't match your gender, what does 'gender' mean, and which ones match which sexes if they're entirely separate'?

I've had about 2 half-hearted attempts at answers and everyone else just ignores, pretends not to understand or, basically, lies. Some are 'transsexuals' who agree that male/female is a physical thing and that is what trans people are aiming to change, but mostly it's 'gender is an identity, nothing to do with sex, but your sex is what your gender is'.

Hope you stick around, OP. Unfortunately the default answer to most sensible questions is 'because the misogyny is worse than you ever even thought'.

I suppose back then I thought if I asked enough TRA types, very kindly and genuinely, the right questions, they'd answer them in a way that'd make me understand.

it’s exactly that - I keep thinking if I frame things clearly enough I’ll get a more coherent response to all the obvious problems with TWAW but then hitting a totally illogical wall of ‘but how could you be so mean and discriminatory’. I can see how it becomes mentally all-consuming because I am now thinking about it all A LOT, and coming up with ways to help DD & contemporaries see where the ‘biology doesn’t matter’ approach leads . And then I end up sounding like I’m obsessed and ranting, which is exactly how GC women are being depicted.

im hearing a lot about fictional Elle in the context of “but why would you exclude her from xyz …”

anyway, yes I do plan to lurk about here 🙂

I think there is a tendency to think that gay men can simply say 'no' to having sex with the opposite sex and that'll be the end of it.

Unfortunately the transgender crowd, or at least a sizable number of them, won't accept 'no' as an answer

Woke Homophobia: Anti-Gay Hatred & Boxer Ceiling Abuse from Trans Activists & Gender-Identity Ideologues collects screenshots of homophobic online abuse from transactivists and 'gender-identity ideologues' (I think that is supposed to mean 'leftists')

And it's obvious that the gay community is seeing some pretty vitriolic homophobia from the transgender activists. Whether that is increasing in regularity and intensity isn't clear from just this web site alone, but it must be driving-up membership of LGB Alliance.

Seeing that web page makes me feel as physically ill as reading T*isaslur does.

Less blood, gore, rape and death threats involved, but really nasty stuff.

That is really shocking

Most of the gay men ive ever known are really into cock, funnily enough.

Yes, I've discussed this with a couple of my gay male friends, one of whom has been burned in the whole TRA ideology (he faced a harmful vexatious complaint which was so so difficult for him). One of them said pretty much what you've written here @Branleuse "I'm into cock." Well, quite, of course he is, being homosexual & all that.

I am just not sure if this is true. Words like hetero-homo-bi-sexual have a meaning of course, but reality isn't determined by the words, the words are an attempt to describe the reality.

The human brain is built to see certain things to indicate a person is a possible sexual partner, a lot based on secondary sexual characteristics. It's primitive and that part of the brain has a very limited capacity to deal with the fact that it is possible, through the use ot technology, to make some people convincingly appear as the other sex. If an individual is convincing in their appearence as the other sex, for some people they will respond sexually as if that is the case. This seems to be the case for some transmen, who really don't look all that different than the members of a boy-band, which is an appealing demographic to some.

Calling gay men transphobic for not sleeping with females doesn't even scratch the surface of the violent rape and death threats directed at lesbians that won't sleep with men. If you want shocking, that's where to aim to be honest.

I get what you are saying. But the reality is that there will continue to be males who are only attracted to males and females who are only attracted to females however much language is policed or appropriated. Just like there will continue to be female humans, whether or not we are allowed to use the word woman.

There is also nothing new in physical reality and commonly used language not matching up. I recall reading about how important it was to direct certain health advice to "men who sleep with men" as opposed to "gay and bisexual men". This is because there was an apparently significant number of men who did not call themselves gay or bi (for various reasons, I guess related to culture, prejudice or being in a het relationship) who nonetheless slept with men.

You only have to read the screenshots in the page linked above and the many, many addressed to homosexual females to get this.

There is absolute rage that homosexual people won't wholly change what homosexual means and in fact stop being homosexual and use their bodies to validate someone's identity.

The absolute lack of respect, care or even basic social reciprocation with the people with the bodies desired to provide a sexual experience is overwhelming. Homosexual people trying to explain 'but I don't want to' and 'that doesn't work for me' in those screenshots are just met with rage and either 'I don't care, do what I say right now' or threats.

And then note the open comments about 'homophobia should be normalised' (to punish people who won't stop being homosexual and do what I tell them.)

It's deeply disturbing stuff. The behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, and the relationships board would tell you in words of one syllable, someone who treats others like this and views others as so inhuman is not relationship material. Their sex and gender is irrelevant, the behaviour and lack of social and emotional reciprocation is the issue.

If homosexual people and female people and safeguarding people yada yada saying 'no,this does not work for me/them/her' is 'transphobia' then the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that transphobia really does mean nothing more than thwarting someone in their desire to do exactly what they want, including by expecting them to consider the impact of their actions on others. That isn't any kind of 'phobia' these are natural consequences of behaving very inappropriately towards others.

As I've mentioned to my toddlers before now: if you're unkind to people, they will not want to play with you, and no, I am not going to make them. It's getting down to being this fundamental.

Speaking as a lesbian, I'm attracted to the innate femaleness of biological females, smell, shapes, sex organs, energy, everything. That cannot be imitated. My senses cannot be fooled.

And by the way, Men or women who sleep with people of their own sex are not heterosexual.

I don't doubt that. Calls for the extinction of "cis gay men" "kill all cis...", "hate crimes' etc still grim though.

Luckily, none of those screen shots actually said that then so all is good.

You seem very worried about men.

I get that someone could be superficially attracted to an unusually convincing trans person.

But a woman who is straight and finds a trans man attractive, and then goes on to have sex after discovering she is a trans man (ie woman) not a man is -

(1) Bisexual. By definition.

and

(2) Maybe, "at best", "basically straight" but with slight bisexual tendency that is acted on occasionally with masculine women.

Quite.

There are many TM I find very attractive - but wholly respect that they are unlikely to be interested in a lesbian, and that's fine. Other people's boundaries, absolutely to be respected.

TW and NB male people - I can certainly appreciate very attractive male people of all gender identities, attractive meaning personality as much as appearance, and have met some very attractive androgynous appearing people, but I can't help being sexually attracted to biological sex, and outer appearance and personality isn't all that matters. Otherwise I'd be bi, not lesbian. Someone feeling a need to 'fix' me for being faulty in this has a problem.