I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

[Diagnosticdigressions]

Like lots of parents, I'm having plenty of lively discussions with teen daughter at the moment about the question of whether transwomen are women etc and the complexities of that. Have also had conversations with lesbian friends about the impact of this debate on them. Was somewhat alarmed at the statement from the head of Stonewall recently that seemed to infer that lesbian women who don't date (trans)women are transphobic (I think he also likened it to racism and excluding people from your dating pool on the grounds of ethnicity).

Anyway, it got me thinking about how gay men feel about dating transmen (or just other 'men' if that is your take on it) - specifically those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery? I've not heard anything about that and, based on past conversations with gay friends, I just can't imagine them being up for dating a (trans)man with breasts and female genitalia.

But, I admit I haven't had a conversation like that in many years and maybe times are changing and I'm out of touch. So, where are gay men in all this? This is genuinely not meant as a goady post - I actually don't know and am interested to know why this doesn't seem to get anywhere near the same level of coverage.

Thank goodness you said it. I'd read that sentence three times assuming I'd missed some nuance, but no. They re really trying to erase homosexual attraction, aren't they?

KathyMunro · Today 15:35

Homosexual = same SEX attracted.
Heterosexual = opposite sex attracted

So a man (male sex) and a transman (female sex) are heterosexual.
A transwoman (male sex) and a woman (female sex) are heterosexual.

It seems very very very very clear to me! (And to most adults with half a brain).

I mean the only way anything else makes sense is if you literally have got confused and think the words are hterogenderality and homogenderality, or if you are a massive homophobe who wishes to trans the gay away using trans status as a kind of conversion therapy.

Well I do have half a brain but I read an article recently on a sporting website about a transman who described himself as gay and wondered what he meant in the context of being trans. My husband was similarly perplexed and said it made his brain hurt.

www.energiseme.org/blog/lifting-more-than-weights-finding-a-lifeline-in-weightlifting/

Not entirely unrelated point - he makes (in my opinion) a very convincing man and presumably has had hormonal treatment. Whether he's had surgery I don't know, it wasn't mentioned.

Note: having read the article again, there was a bit at the bottom I missed last time where he mentioned his husband.

Having said that I do have some limited sympathy with this younger generation.

I presume that many people are very straight or very gay, and many are completely ambiguous, equally open to gay and straight relationships. BUT, it doesn't seem to be that much of a stratch to think that many people are neither 100% gay or straight or 100% in the middle. There is some sense in people being more open to exploring gay or straight relationships despite their primary orientation being the opposite. There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm pretty much straight, but I am literally bi as I am somewhat same sex attracted. When I fancy women I tend to prefer those whose body and gender expression is relatively androgenous or masculine"

Ultimately I do have some sympathy with the current generations (claims of) increased sexual fluidity and openness... but ultimately I believe no-one has ever changed sex, everyone is gay straight or bi and there is nothing anyone can say to contradict that without denying reality and expressing deeply homophobic opinions a la Stonewall who are literally a misogynistic and homophobic hate group at this point.

riesenrad · Today 15:49

Not entirely unrelated point - he makes (in my opinion) a very convincing man and presumably has had hormonal treatment. Whether he's had surgery I don't know, it wasn't mentioned.

Note: having read the article again, there was a bit at the bottom I missed last time where he mentioned his husband.

Do you want to buy a second hand car. Mine does as very convincing impression of a solid, reliable run-around (if you don't look too close!)

How do you know her "husband" isn't a woman?

Do you believe that people literally change sex?

If "yes", then please go away and do some more reading!

If "no", then please explain how two people of opposite sexes can be in a same sex relationship!

It's the clash of actual reality and preferred reality.

If to support someone's chosen illusion that they are in fact the opposite sex you will support them in the further belief that they are in a gay relationships as part of their chosen illusion? And to jar that illusion or to insist that no, parts of it aren't real and shouldn't be treated as real is hurtful and invalidating to them?

You by extension have to invalidate actual homosexual people, define away their reality and remove their words, categories and protections.

Someone's going to be hurt by this. Is it going to be the person who is not homosexual but really emotionally wishes to have that illusion? Or is it going to be actual homosexuals?

And [few] transwomen want straight women as that infers that they are still male.

I'm a straight woman currently OLD. I've seen several transmen in my matches and I don't want to have sex with them. No issues with them being trans but forcing me to have sex with people I don't want to have sex with is called rape.

And [few] transwomen want straight women as that infers that they are still male.

I have read articles by TW explaining that they do not want bi female partners as their concern would be the female being attracted to the male part of them. Only female sexual partners who are exclusively attracted to biological females will do.

So there is an absolute belief in homosexuality - and that the female must demonstrate a belief that a male person is in fact female by agreeing to sexual access. Hence the whole 'but a female penis will have a totally different mouthfeel as you'd find if you'd get over your homosexuality bigotry and just do what you're told' thing.

It is beyond nauseating. And frightening. And everywhere it's being justified that male people can treat female people like this and any fault is on the female people's side for saying hang on a minute.....

"I'm a straight woman currently OLD. I've seen several transmen in my matches and I don't want to have sex with them. No issues with them being trans but forcing me to have sex with people I don't want to have sex with is called rape."

www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rsa/rape-and-sexual-assault/what-is-rape-and-sexual-assault/

The UK legal definition of rape involves a penis, so a transman (female) would not be able to rape, even with Phalloplasty.

There are lesbian dating sites where women have been kicked off because they say they don't want to date transwomen (males!). Seems males want to intrude in to every part of women's lives.

Surely the truth is that for many TW it is all about validation, so it is not a concern about the partner liking the wrong part, it's about their entire life being about demanding validation.

Like so many things it is completely contradicitory. I suppose you are right it is all about homosexuality... but only after redefining homosexuality to mean "homosexuality and a proportion of heterosexuality".

Interestingly I just read a memoir a trans author who was born female but now identifies only as trans, and who writes that if they were to date they would like to date as a gay man, but the gay community is very transphobic towards trans men so it's not an option, they would not be accepted.

I found it interesting that this author called it transphobic rather than even considering the fact that gay men are into men, full stop, and part of that is same-sex attraction and not finding female bodies sexually attractive, however they identify - that possibility did not even rate a mention.

So he's a woman married to a straight man while claiming to be gay.

Calling it transphobic is probably an attempt to alter the way sexual orientation has been defined for quite some time. Biological sex is to be replaces with something to do with gender, though I have found exactly what that something might be confusing.

Some writings say that it is 'gender expression' or 'gender performance' which others are sexually drawn to. So someone is a Lesbian if they themselves identify as a woman and are sexually attracted to those who perform femininity.

This allows transwomen to be Lesbians, but it stops many Lesbians from being Lesbians if they prefer women who are more masculine in presentation.

So that one doesn't work. The other one I have seen proposed is that sexual orientation is really being attracted by someone's gender identity, i.e., that most likely mythical feminine or masculine or neither soul. This doesn't work, either, as there's no way of checking on someone's soul or if it likes pink and sparkles or beer and wrestling, and I really don't think that asking a question about someone's gender identity and getting the answer would turn all the hormones off or on, other things remaining the same.

The attempt to base sexual orientation on gender really does not work at all, logically. There are many other inconsistencies in these attempts, and trying to solve any one of them causes new ones to crop up. So people's sexual orientation would change when their partner transitions to a different identity etc. No wonder that many who support this just state that the only ethical choice is to be pansexual! Sadly, sexual orientation is not at all about ethics, and demanding that it is really is authoritarianism of rather worrying type.

On the topic of this thread: Some gay men have written about the 'boxer ceiling' which is the equivalent of the cotton ceiling, i.e., trans men arguing that it is transphobic of gay men not to want to have sex with them as they, too, are gay men.

I think fewer trans men have these attitudes of entitlement but some do. I also think that there are gay men (can't tell the percentages of various opinions on this issue) who are willing to partner with trans men, and there are more gay men who state that they would do so, but not all gay men are on board with this expectation, and that group seems to be getting larger.

I have never seen a trans man who doesn't just look like a woman with short hair and a flat chest.

I've not yet met a transboy who wasn't a lesbian. How common are heterosexual transmen? I get the feeling that quite a few transwomen are straight but that is a much smaller proportion of transmen. Obviously, there's no really good way of telling.

I think that is the concern from the adults in the room for young lesbians. It is not cool at school to look like a 'butch lesbian' (even if they're just rejecting the Kardashian-look stereotype, that's what they are called). So they 'trans' to become more cool and interesting and can call themselves 'straight'.
I feel very sorry for them. The Out and Proud Lesbian is a thing of the past for these young girls.

A male friend transitioned to female and has had top surgery but not bottom one. she is engaged to be married to a lesbian shortly.

No, I do not even consider how the sex works!

Ok returning to this after taking a break. Thanks again to everyone who posted. A few responses to specific posts:

@artichokeleaves I missed your post this morning but totally agree re the problem of ‘self image identity labels’ as you put it

@joystir59 You seem to be confusing me with someone who is questioning same sex attraction when the absolute opposite is true. I acknowledged in my OP the threat to same sex attraction but asked why people thought it was being handled so one-sidedly in the press at a time when, generally speaking, people are starting to call out double standards. I've now received many coherent answers on the subject. Job done. I don’t think my own sexual orientation is particularly relevant here but FWIW I am sexually attracted to both men and women (though the vast majority of my sexual experience is with men) so probably not a great example here. But, my husband (for example) is definitely heterosexual and I categorically don’t think it would be transphobic of him not to want to sleep with a TW.

@Pluvia I’ve no idea if your last comment was directed at me and, if so, what comment you are referring to. I haven’t at any point denied the threat to homosexual attraction – it’s literally in my OP. What I was querying is the one-sided nature of the coverage of it. That has been put down, by the majority of posters, to a combination of misogyny and homophobia, with some important stuff to think about thrown in as well and I’ve been directed to some places where gay men are discussing this issue too. All of this is helpful and what I was looking for. But I could do without the sarcasm and veiled accusations. You seem to expect everyone to automatically have the same level of knowledge and understanding on this topic as you have. That is not what I understand message boards to be for.

@mangyInseam some really interesting things to think about there, thank you

@GCRich your first post pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject – I am trying to at least understand the widely held ‘we are more fluid in these things’ perspective but the actual practicality of totally denying sex is insurmountable for me.

@nepeta thank you for your very considered responses

@KathyMunro this concerns me a lot re young lesbians. There is a real pressure in the teen circles I know of, for them to identify as non-binary or trans

This is an interesting thread.

he likened it to … excluding people from your dating pool on the grounds of ethnicity

This is a really weird thing to say, mainly because people do this all the time. One guy I know really likes red-headed women - is he discriminating against brunettes? It isn’t racist to refuse to have sex with someone you don’t (for whatever reason) fancy.

Sorry, that’s probably a bit off topic.

My last point related to the other posts I quoted, not yours OP.

I think you’re right that much younger people are less bothered. I have a friend who is a gay trans man and he has only ever dated gay cis men.

But I could do without the sarcasm and veiled accusations. You seem to expect everyone to automatically have the same level of knowledge and understanding on this topic as you have. That is not what I understand message boards to be for.

Spend longer on these boards and you will see regular trolling posts from people innocently asking innocuous questions with the intention of annoying and provoking until someone snaps and posts something that can be screenshot and uploaded to Twitter to prove that we all want to commit trans genocide. They are getting more and more nuanced. They usually start with a poster claiming to be confused and asking a reasonable question, as you did. They go on to get more and more perplexed and ask more questions. They often cite a child or another person for whom they need to be able to spell this out.

Everything, from the fact that you assumed the CEO of Stonewall was male, to the predictable 'I'm new to all this' set alarm bells ringing. When you've hung around here a bit and you've seen what we've put up with you might understand. Some of us have been fighting this for 10 years and longer. We've explained over and over again. Did you show your daughter the Mr Menno video?

My nephew recently dated a trans man he met online. When I asked he said they and their very ‘fluid’ pals all found the stonewall comments stupid and incendiary and reassured me that the vast majority of online hookups where a trans individual is involved rely heavily on consent. Therefore it is always stated if you are trans. They couldn’t speak for transwomen dating gay women of course. The language if consent is v powerful among young which gives me hope that rejection is more accepted and shrugged off than it would have been back in my day. Online dating IS constant rejection after all with the beer swipe of a finger. You’d expect people to have a thicker skin than stonewall spokespeople state they do.

Forgive typos. Putting a child back to sleep!