I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

[Diagnosticdigressions]

Like lots of parents, I'm having plenty of lively discussions with teen daughter at the moment about the question of whether transwomen are women etc and the complexities of that. Have also had conversations with lesbian friends about the impact of this debate on them. Was somewhat alarmed at the statement from the head of Stonewall recently that seemed to infer that lesbian women who don't date (trans)women are transphobic (I think he also likened it to racism and excluding people from your dating pool on the grounds of ethnicity).

Anyway, it got me thinking about how gay men feel about dating transmen (or just other 'men' if that is your take on it) - specifically those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery? I've not heard anything about that and, based on past conversations with gay friends, I just can't imagine them being up for dating a (trans)man with breasts and female genitalia.

But, I admit I haven't had a conversation like that in many years and maybe times are changing and I'm out of touch. So, where are gay men in all this? This is genuinely not meant as a goady post - I actually don't know and am interested to know why this doesn't seem to get anywhere near the same level of coverage.

My DS is gay. So I asked him if he'd sleep with a transman. He said yes. He said he'd also sleep with a non binary person who is female. It left me very confused, because he insisted he was gay, not bisexual. Yet he claims he'd sleep with a female if she utters the magic words "I'm non binary" yet wouldn't with an identical woman who says she's a woman. 🤷‍♀️

Really, I think he's actually gay, but very into people are who they say they are, so says these things with no actual intention of ever sleeping with anyone female bodied no matter how they identify.

I might be proven wrong. He hasn't actually had a relationship with anyone yet.

(He also said he was non binary and told me I was too when I said I didn't feel like a woman. So close, and yet so far.)

I did a quick google - couldn't find anything that coherent but it looks as if SGC is a middle aged man identifying as a girl, right? Publicly so? If so, I imagine DD's take would be that this person is an anomaly overly emphasised by transphobes to present the worst case scenario

Ah, I get it. Another one of the terminally flummoxed posters who post innocently and ask the same question over and over again despite women giving them thorough and wide-ranging answers.

Transmen aren't going to/ aren't capable of raping and possibly impregnating a gay guy. In a struggle between a gay man and a transman, the transman is likely to come off worst because of the man's extra strength gained by going through a male puberty. Transwomen can be laughed off.

Whereas a lesbian being coerced into sex by a 6'2" bepenised person isn't so funny. Rape and the possibility of pregnancy loom large. And of course women have been educated from birth to comply and be kind and reasonable in a way that no boy is.

There's another answer for you. Less baffled now? Just because gay men aren't complaining about this on a daily basis doesn't mean they're seriously pissed off about it.

Yeah, you see this is where I'm out of my depth. I know middle aged gay men who, as stated by others upthread, would I"m pretty sure be totally grossed out by vaginas and breasts BUT maybe the next generation really aren't bothered. In which case will that also apply to other physical characteristics - will the whole idea of a 'type' or an actual sexual preference of any kind go out of the window / become viewed as fetishistic?

@Pluvia I don't think you do get it. I am reading each and every answer. I understand what everyone is saying about power dynamics, risk of sexual violence etc and I promise you I am not being disingenuous. It seems so breathtakingly outrageous that women should be judged so differently to men on this that I'm genuinely surprised that it isn't being talked about more. I get that if you have been more involved in this debate it seems blindingly obvious - I'm still getting my head around it.

Ah, right. So those of us who acknowledge sex are old fuddy-duddies and the new enlightened generation of young people won't have our old-fashioned hang-ups? Is that where you're heading?

Perhaps this twitter thread offers some enlightenment. Do gay men want "novelty pussy"? Probably not unless they aren't really gay at all.

twitter.com/thotcrimimale/status/1533510392063807488?s=21

@Pluvia Not at all!! I too am hung up on the reality of sex. Hence countless arguments with DD on it. It all just seems blindingly obvious to me and kind of alarming that millions of young people are being brought up to believe that physical characteristics can be ignored. I guess I"m trying to work out if it's really possible whether this view could gain permanent traction and what the hell that means

Twitter is absolutely full of gay men - both young (gasp!) & old - who are finally seeing the homophobia inherent in modern trans ideology. It's very cathartic to watch. Plenty of trans people who agree, too.

And we have been nearly overwhelmed on this board by people who 'are out of their depth', 'baffled', 'struggling to understand' and on and on: who ask us to explain things and then explain them again and constantly reframe things in order to wear us down, catch us out and get the message to us that we're out of touch, bigoted, unreasonable. We're not.

Watch the Mr Menno video. He speaks for a fair proportion of gay men.

OK so the general view is that gay men are not ok with this. Clearly lots of posters think I'm being very naive. So are journalists covering this stuff just avoiding the elephant in the room because they are scared of repercussions? Because presumably if they are already writing about trans issues and GC views they are sticking their necks out anyway?

It all just seems blindingly obvious to me and kind of alarming that millions of young people are being brought up to believe that physical characteristics can be ignored.

Not just "can be", but "should be", which is the problem. We've potentially gone from "compulsory heterosexuality" to "compulsory bisexuality" without stopping in the sensible midposition.

This is why we're seeing things like LGB Alliance forming in opposition to Stonewall. A lot of people are not on-board with compulsory bisexuality.

See also the "superstraight"/"supergay"/etc thing.

I've seen men on twitter say they're gay, they are attracted to trans men and not to women.

I think very personally that sexuality is generally much less rigid than the categories suggest - mine certainly is and I think my very heterosexual side has always been celebrated and rewarded whereas my attraction to women just isn't; it's relatively weak compared to my het side but I grew up in the 70s, relationships with girls and women weren't a very visible option to me. I still wouldn't say that I'm gay or even bisexual and as I'm not gay I am not going to pronounce on it. But I can believe that there are men who are gay who can be attracted to transmen because of their presentation and not to women. I would like to know, though, whether they ever actually have sex with trans men rather than just seeing them as attractive, and whether they ever feel attracted to very butch women, and if not, what is going on there.

For example I'm very attracted to masculine voices - I've never found a man with a high speaking voice attractive, and women who take testosterone often have very rapid change to their voices because their vocal folds enlarge. It's one of the reasons transmen pass better than transwomen. So there's a big barrier there that disappears fast.

OK well I'm sorry that has been your experience. But I am not trying to wear anyone down and I come at this very much from a GC perspective. However, there are aspects of this whole debacle that came up last night in a discussion that I hadn't properly explored and I genuinely want to understand where my DD and her contemporaries are coming from on this and why a whole seemingly obvious angle is being ignored in mainstream discussion. I now see that it is being more widely discussed on twitter but for example in the articles I've pointed to, it is being totally ignored.

So are journalists covering this stuff just avoiding the elephant in the room because they are scared of repercussions?

Well, yes. Talking about any of this is transphobic.

They can barely summon up the courage to talk about the primary issue of lesbians (the BBC cotton ceiling piece being a rare exception), so expecting them to go on to cover the secondarily and less-impacted population of gay men is a bit much. (Straight people are largely unaffected by this, both because they don't find themselves in LGBTQ spaces so much, and because trans people don't get the sort of validation they're looking for from them - they specifically want to be with "gays" or "lesbians").

Same sort of thing for detransitioners. Detransitioners are primarily female, so the little mainstream coverage you see skews heavily female, because we don't have the airtime for the minority too.

@NecessaryScene wow, the 'super straight / super gay' thing is totally news to me. I do know about the LGB alliance though - and was, as I say, pretty shocked by the stonewall CEO's comment so absolutely see the need for it

Well that would be the answer, wouldn't it. You're looking for what you seek in the wrong places.

I'm always a bit when a teenager, who has never yet had a relationship or had sex, is declaring that they're absolutely homosexual but homosexual actually means anyone of any sex.

I wonder who they're trying to please, and I wonder how much the 'gay' label they've chosen is yet secure as opposed to a theory.

And that's fine. I was in my twenties before I was absolutely certain I was homosexual, I worry about kids not even in adolescence yet being encouraged to pick a label and live it in theory. But it's led to this messing about and 'oh be nice about stretching definitions to fit everyone' that now means definitely homosexual people, as in decades of relationships and absolute certainty regarding attraction and what works sexually, are being told that they're committing apartheid by refusing straight sex if a potential partner wishes them to participate in an illusion of theirs.

This is what happens when terms like 'woman' and 'homosexual' and 'disabled' become nice self image identity labels that you can try on and swap around like hats and hairstyles while 'finding yourself'. It's other people's identities you are fucking about with.

The CEO of Stonewall, to whom you refer as 'he' is Nancy Kelley, a lesbian. It's very easy to check these things yourself.

There was an interesting thread/ incident a while ago about a gay men's magazine and "transphobic" people - can't remember the details but can find later, but the mags and Twitter discussion would be where you're likely to see this talked about (if at all). A few gay men in the public eye have spoken out about it, but not many, and they're generally left alone, unlike women.

@Pluvia the wrong place as it, this angle is never going to be covered in mainstream media? Anyway, mid-way through watching the Mr Menno video (and will find the right moment to suggest that DD watches it too)

This is the Boyz magazine thing I mentioned
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4090953-Gay-mens-magazine-bullied-into-grovelling

Right, yes I did actually see that after I'd posted. My mistake, sorry.

You really seem to think I'm trying to stir things here and I assume that's just because of other experiences you've had on here but I'm just one of many, many parents of teenage children trying to navigate this stuff and asking questions in a place that I thought it was acceptable to ask these questions.

wow, the 'super straight / super gay' thing is totally news to me

Don't take it too seriously, it's a 4chan rabbit hole.

Thanks v much @DeaconBoo