I have a question about same sex attraction and trans rights in the context of gay men and transmen

[Diagnosticdigressions]

Like lots of parents, I'm having plenty of lively discussions with teen daughter at the moment about the question of whether transwomen are women etc and the complexities of that. Have also had conversations with lesbian friends about the impact of this debate on them. Was somewhat alarmed at the statement from the head of Stonewall recently that seemed to infer that lesbian women who don't date (trans)women are transphobic (I think he also likened it to racism and excluding people from your dating pool on the grounds of ethnicity).

Anyway, it got me thinking about how gay men feel about dating transmen (or just other 'men' if that is your take on it) - specifically those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery? I've not heard anything about that and, based on past conversations with gay friends, I just can't imagine them being up for dating a (trans)man with breasts and female genitalia.

But, I admit I haven't had a conversation like that in many years and maybe times are changing and I'm out of touch. So, where are gay men in all this? This is genuinely not meant as a goady post - I actually don't know and am interested to know why this doesn't seem to get anywhere near the same level of coverage.

Because the most important thing about gay men, is that they are men. They get to choose who they want to date without being labelled as exclusionary.
Obviously it is only women (as in adult human females) who need to be available to anyone that wants to shag them.

Anyway, it got me thinking about how gay men feel about dating transmen (or just other 'men' if that is your take on it) - specifically those who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery? I've not heard anything about that and, based on past conversations with gay friends, I just can't imagine them being up for dating a (trans)man with breasts and female genitalia.

Timely.

One prominent gay man, who is a 'journalist' with the Guardian newspaper, once said that he thought it was disgusting that people should suggest that he would ever have sex with a transman, as he was gay.

One prominent straight man, who is or was [not sure if he still is] in politics, said that he thought transwomen were women, except for relationship purposes.

Many gay and straight men are allowed to make these decisions. Lesbians however, not so much. And [few] transwomen want straight women as that infers that they are still male.

Incidentally the 'journalist' with the Guardian was highly indignant at the suggestion that as a gay man he should consider a biological female (however they identify) as a sexual partner and said it was homophobic, however expressed the belief too that female homosexuals should be willing to have sex with biological males to serve this political belief system.

(Come and see the misogyny inherent in the system.)

Several gay male friends find this quite funny and are just flatly "Yeah, no, never going to happen". However they do not have the same sex based experience that biological females do, that saying no to someone of the opposite sex who wants sex from you can be a dangerous thing to do, can at best lead to name calling and shouting (who has not been called a frigid bitch when saying no to someone who told you you'd pulled) and at worse to violence or even rape. Gay men are not afraid of sexual aggression or violence when saying no to biological females. And you never see TM threatening to punch or rape or beat with a baseball bat gay men who say no to them.

There was a discussion about this a little while ago, I've no idea which thread. Anecdotally, there suddenly seemed to have been gay men complaining about expecting to be in relationships with tm. Another poster pointed out this would track with the first cohort of tm now being of an age to want to start dating. I've not looked but I've not been aware of any gay men saying they're okay with it. They may be out there though.

Even Owen Jones has admitted he wouldn't have sex with a transman. When transmen have been thrown out of gay men saunas and Man Friday was thrown out of the Hampstead men's pond - while women are sanctioned for talking about single sex spaces, toilets, prisons, and the cotton ceiling - well then you know it's a man's rights issue.

Most of the gay men ive ever known are really into cock, funnily enough.
I think the reality is that transmen tend to almost always date other transmen

Interesting - thanks for the feedback, folks.

Are names being avoided because everyone is just feeling v cautious about discussing this stuff publicly? And in fact why is this not being talked about in public? This is the 'cotton ceiling' article I read that troubled me but there's no discussion of how this impacts on gay men who may not be inclined to date transmen.

I get that it's a very divisive subject (and more complicated than is sometimes reflected in reporting) but it seems so odd that the gay men / TM angle just doesn't seem to have surfaced widely

I'm neither gay nor a man, but if a gay man is happy to sleep with a transman then he is not gay.

Even Owen Jones has admitted he wouldn't have sex with a transman.

I don't think he quite said that. He said it was homophobic to ask and threw a little paddy.

In fairness he says most questions are homophobic, transphobic or imperialist. The fact that he's held a particular opinion 5 minutes earlier about someone else doesn't seem to inhibit him from thinking a position is morally wrong if applied to him.

Sorry to bore on but I'm finding it really baffling that this angle is just not being discussed: this article here for example sets out the issues that some lesbian women are facing but nowhere does it give a view from a gay man.

If 'genital preference' is transphobic, why is the focus on women? Why are we not talking to straight men who don't want to date women with penises?

If 'genital preference' is transphobic, why is the focus on women? Why are we not talking to straight men who don't want to date women with penises?

It's easier for a man to say "no" to a woman, and have that respected, than for a woman to say "no" to a man.

I think that's basically all it comes down to. It's sex-based power dynamics.

So much of this stuff is incredibly revealing about that - the asymmetries that arise are sharply delineated by sex, despite everyone denying their sex.

@NecessaryScene yes that makes sense and I understand the risk for women being higher etc and the power dynamics stuff but at a time in history when we are (finally) starting to scrutinise inherent bias and how different groups are affected by it it seems absolutely extraordinary that the debate is being tackled in such a one-sided way

Plus there's another female dynamic where women police each other's behaviour. So women will go around being mean to women who aren't "being kind".

That's not really a thing men do to each other so much.

So, sure, the "boxer ceiling" is a thing, and transmen do try it, but it just doesn't get the same sort of traction, at all.

You might kind of see it at the "corporate/HR" level, where some incredibly Woke person (quite possibly female!) puts a transman into some "gay" photoshoot, or transmen competitors being permitted into "Mr Gay UK" competitions.

But individual gay men largely say "fuck off".

There are many 'straight' men who want to date transwomen.

There are many gay men who think this simply doesn't affect them, and turn a blind eye.

The reason it's not discussed, as other PPs have said, is that this is all about men getting what they want, and women not being allowed to say no.

It's only lesbians being shamed for not including transwomen in their dating pool, because to transmen have (so far) not been demanding access to gay mens bodies.

As we see a new cohort of transmen grow up, with the sense of entitlement that being male brings, we may see a small shift. But not a huge one, because the imbalance of power isn't there. It's only women who have to do as we are told, only women who can't so no to male wants and desires. Gay men still hold the male power card.

at a time in history when we are (finally) starting to scrutinise inherent bias and how different groups are affected

Right, but a lot of this stuff is designed to subvert that. Transmen are told to shut up and go to the back and let transwomen speak, because of their "male privilege".

(Seriously! Check out Benji/GNCcentric's interview with Benjamin Boyce - when she was being trans, she moved in those circles, and describes it eloquently).

As we see a new cohort of transmen grow up, with the sense of entitlement that being male brings

Transmen are women, how can they have male entitlement?

I know two gay couples where one is a trans man. They seem perfectly happy. I know a couple where one of the women is trans.
I also know the majority of my lesbian friends probably wouldn’t go out with a trans woman, aren’t feeling pressured to, and aren’t expected to within the LGBT + community.
can’t always believe what you read on Twitter or anywhere else.
Generally, IMHO, gay, lesbian and trans people have always got along okay… it’s the straight but ‘queer’ activists that really get on my tits.

Even if they are demanding access to men's bodies, men will just say no. And there will be no outcry because they're men.

There was a story a couple of years ago about a transman being kicked out of a gay sauna. I think the sauna apologised but there were no protests, no calls for the sauna to be shut down, the men who complained weren't targeted and harassed.

I think the way transmen are treated by the gay male community tells you everything you need to know about people who are adamant that TWAW/TMAM.

None of them actually believe it.

That is interesting re the kindness argument - it came up with DD last night. Her argument being that it's cruel not to 'believe' people who are trans and want access to female spaces / female sport etc even if they are still biologically male / haven't undergone gender reassignment surgery. She sees it as being unkind and assuming the worst of an entire group of people. It's a v widespread view among her and her contemporaries.

They're not gay couples if they are different sexes.

Almost like it is a man's rights movement.

Ok ok, not almost. It IS.

Suggest she googles 'Secret Gamer Girl'.

Go on, do it for her.

If she think that 'Secret Gamer Girl' is fine in the toilets/changing rooms/gender neutral accommodation with other Girls...then...you have alot of work on your hands.

I'm a lesbian and active in the LGB Alliance and after a slow start, there is more and more outrage among gay man at the idea that they can learn to love vagina. Here's Mr Menno's take on it:

As a lesbian I've been trying to raise the issue of all the men presenting as women who are trying to get into lesbian spaces and groups and have effectively driven the lesbian-only scene underground. Gay men are now starting to have the same response to the new generation of transmen who are looking for (effectively heterosexual) sex from them. It's homophobic to turn up at a gay male bar and tell gay men that they shouldn't turn you down because you have a vagina and it seems strangely naive too. Anyone who knows gay men knows it's all about dicks. It's as if these transmen have no respect for others' sexuality.

This is really interesting, and sounds encouragingly positive. I don't know any such couples, just gay couples and lesbian couples none of whom would I think be comfortable dating people who have the genitals of the opposite sex. But these are people in their 40s, 50s, 60s etc no 20s and 30s so maybe, as I say, I"m out of touch on that front

What do you mean 'gay'.

If it is two females, and one is a trans man then they think they are a straight couple. So you must mean two humans, one male and one transman - which is a straight couple - this is the issue that straight people are basically claiming to be 'queer'. So it obliterates the LGB movement.

Now I don't mind who sleeps with who. The rush to be oppressed really does undermine actually oppressed populations.