So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

Damn, and here you are, @ShinyRainbow , pointing out that I've missed out on yet another memo, that my gay son should become life-long medical patient. God, I'm so behind the times!

No, it really didn't. You are talking about potential, the ability to. Not a role, with the presumption of it being fulfilled.

As a woman who chose to remain child free I take offence at the idea that I have not fulfilled a role society assigned me based in my sex class. Like I failed an audition, fucked up a job!

Where did I ever imply anything of the sort?

‘What do you think the purpose of biological sex is? How do you think reproductive function works? What role do you think sexual attraction plays in it? You go on about how sex is defined by the "potential to produce gametes". Well, what do you think the purpose of those gametes is?’

This is cart before horse. Evolutionary theory would say there is no purpose to life or to any function that exists as part of life. At random, things mutate. Some of the things that happen when that occurs help things live longer. Reproductive dimorphism is just one of those things.

But obviously humans have developed the capacity to understand those processes and some people will choose to avoid reproduction.

So now you know how trans women feel when they're expected to act out the role of a "man".

Sorry, @ShinyRainbow , I didn't get the memo that I had a 'reproductive role', when was that sent out? There I was thinking I had a choice of having or not having children, not realising I have a 'reproductive role' to fulfill!
You do have a choice though, that's the whole point!
Even though there are people who think only men and women should be in relationships, it's the natural order, and that women should reproduce...
You can see it is so wrong when it's against gay people, but you can't see when it's affecting trans people, that they shouldn't transition?!
Ok.

"Evolutionary design" is what you constantly invoke when you argue why trans women can't be women or trans men can't be men.

We have also developed the capacity to define our own identities and reshape our bodies, so why are you trying to deprive trans people of the ability to?

So now you know how trans women feel when they're expected to act out the role of a "man".

So don't act out the role. Be yourself. Don't pretend to be someone else, and certainly don't push them out in order to do so.

‘So now you know how trans women feel when they're expected to act out the role of a "man".’

In what way are transwomen expected to do this? What is the role of a man?

Research shows that transitioning doesn't alleviate dysphoria. Research shows that people especially kids, are given quite strong drugs with minimal actual diagnosis. I'd say that was pretty dangerous behaviour.

So, trying to help people to be happy in their own skin is what - a bad thing?

The distortion of the parental urge to protect children from physical harm represented in the above post is truly appalling. No doubt this will be deleted but I can think of no other word to describe portraying a parents desire to keep their child whole and healthy as a desire to make them fulfil their parents wishes.
if you can’t tell the difference between these two desires god help you.

‘Evolutionary design" is what you constantly invoke when you argue why trans women can't be women or trans men can't be men.’

No I don’t. The simple fact is that two types of bodies exist. We call one type male and the other female. I didn’t say anyone designed it that way. It just happens to be that way.

‘We have also developed the capacity to define our own identities and reshape our bodies, so why are you trying to deprive trans people of the ability to?’

I’m not. I’ve explicitly said I believe some people are happier if they transition and, providing there is no strong evidence base for the conclusion that it harms many of them, adults should be allowed to do so.

So what's your problem with trans women being true to themselves and living as women? Is that "pushing you out" somehow?

@ShinyRainbow "So now you know how trans women feel when they're expected to act out the role of a "man"."

Perhaps men need to be persuaded that "acting out the role of "man"" is unnecessary? Perhaps men should be persuaded to embrace the idea that some of their fellow men behave very differently and that other men should accommodate such behaviour?

It is not for women to be forced, against their consent, to accommodate such men.

So don't act out the role. Be yourself.

It's not being themselves, though, is it?!
Your comment makes no sense as in order for someone to "be themselves" if they're trans, they need the option to be allowed to transition.

Oh, very good. Or maybe not!

That's why we GC women decry the very idea if gender norms, the restrictive social stereotypes, toxic masculinity, patriarchy etc.

Nobody should have to act out a gendered role.

Not feeling you confirm to the gender stereotype of male doesn't mean you have to cleave unto the gender stereotypes of female. You could just say "Fuck it" and be who you are.

I know how that works in real life as I was a young adult in the 80s, when many of us were gender benders. Men in skirts? OK. They are men, in skirts, dresses, make up. Sexy, I married one. But he was never under the impression he had changed sex or was allowed, because of his presentation, to use female facilities.

For some reason that matter of fact approach to gender bending got lost in the 90s when Ladettes, manbags and guyliner, Spice Girls etc, reset the stereotypes in concrete.

By your lights I would be non binary or even a transman. So maybe lose the assumptions, stop teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, and other aphorisms!

‘if they're trans, they need the option to be allowed to transition.’

But again, what does it mean to be ‘trans’? Can you explain?

But Helen Joyce is still considering happily transitioned people to be "damaged", a "burden to the sane world", and believes that "the fewer of them there are, the better".

What is meant by “living as a woman”?
live as you want. Why does your life need a sex label?

Shiny, you said I compare trans people with disabled people, and you're right, as they will likely become lifelong medical patients. How is that similar to being gay?

‘But Helen Joyce is still considering happily transitioned people to be "damaged", a "burden to the sane world", and believes that "the fewer of them there are, the better".’

She is very blunt about what she thinks, but yes, she does. I don’t. However, I don’t agree she is bigoted or genocidal. She just believes what people are calling ‘transness’ is being unwell.

So what's your problem with trans women being true to themselves and living as women? Is that "pushing you out" somehow?

See how you undermine yourself?

Transwomen are men, can only live as they perceive womanhood to be, all the stereotypes, social mores etc.

And you are posting here, Mumsnet, FWR, that women are not being pushed out by transwomen?

Seriously? Even a cursory glance at threads here shows how wrong you are.

We have also developed the capacity to define our own identities and reshape our bodies, so why are you trying to deprive trans people of the ability to?

How about giving trans people the chance to better understand their bodies and their identities, the way they are shaped and influenced by society, and the options available to them? How about giving them the ability to express their identities in healthy bodies without being alienated from society?

Given the opportunity and support, a huge percentage of trans-identifying teenagers and adolescents desist. Why deny them this opportunity? Why encourage them into harmful interventions?

The word itself is a role.

Why do we need to use the masculine labels and pronouns to refer to them, when they're clearly uncomfortable with those?

This is why the fixation on "gamete production", and that it should dictate our identities in society, is inadvertently homophobic.

The type of gametes one produces is how one's sex is categorised, either male or female, it doesn't dictate an "identity".