So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

I always find these threads depressing. Women, like Joyce, Staniland, FWR posters in general, do their research. Usually know both sides of any and every argument and consider the details. We become as well informed as we can be.

And STILL we get posters like @Foilball who ask daft, trite, insulting questions and NEVER actually engage in an exchange of information and discussion. They are by far less well informed, don't even try to assimilate various contrasting data, to understand the strengths and weaknesses of research methodology, etc.

But they do feel able to dismiss anything they disagree with, often flippantly, always with little thought. That is what is so very damaging. And yet they see themselves as 'the good guys' and GC women as evil and harmful.

I want to be proven wrong. I want a poster like @Foilball to come back and engage in a proper discussion, exchanging information and speaking civilly. Bit I shan't hold my breath.

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

And yet - a number of detransitioned people are describing the fact they weren't able to access nor were given all the information about the impact on the body nor were they interested until the damage was done.

Transition isn't the only option for GD. Many live with GD without medically transitioning.

The reality of transition:

Incontinence pads seem to be a common need among males and females.

tullipr.substack.com/p/lost-boys-part-iii

And osteoporosis, heart issues and endocrine issues.

We are totally talking cross-purposes. Helen believes that there are individuals with gender dysphoria and that as the treatment for gender dysphoria is experimental medication with side-effects of sterilisation, reduced bone density, removal of healthy body parts and life-long medication we should reduce the incidence of gender dysphoria.

Owen Jones believes that individuals with gender dysphoria have an innate gendered soul and by saying one wants to reduce the rate, one wants to kill them.

As a former tomboy, I do not believe that gender dysphoria is innate. It makes zero sense for the ‘social construct’ of gender to be innate.

There is a condition called gender dysphoria, it is increasing through social contagion and causing real distress. It is beyond madness to believe that cross-sex hormones, sterilisation of children and amputation of body parts make people feel better. Seriously???

Samphire, I don't mind those posters as I know others are reading. More fool them not to heed what's going on.

Respect to those who do stop and actually listen.

I don't mind providing the evidence, though it's horrifying. It reasserts my own views and there's never any that comes back.

What's the phrase?

'Start thinking now of reasons you supported the sterilisation of children'

We await the Cass Report.

Yes flamm and we do know about the impact of social media and the internet and porn (and associated social misogyny and sexual assaults) on mental health.

We do know that detransitioned people are describing those same impacts on their decisions to transition in the first place.

This isn't rocket science l.

The least bad option would have been therapy, not surgery FFS.

Quite, what or who is pushing surgery as an option? 💵

Another thing detransitioned people notice. Complete lack of offer for any counselling.

Women like Joyce & Staniland do their research. Usually know both sides of any and every argument and consider the details.

I'd absolutely agree with you on Joyce and I think her book is wonderul, but I find Staniland very one-dimensional and lacking in any real substance. Unlike Joyce, when reading Stanliland's twitter feed it's apparent she doesn't really have the chops for debate.

Which sounds conspiracy theory like except that there is no evidence base.

The text posted earlier came across as lacking in nuance and tact and somewhat evangelical. Personally, I think it best to avoid absolutes. However, for those who took greater umbrage surely the best response is "I disagree...", not death threats.

While I haven't caught up with this properly, what I saw on Twitter was enough to make me vow to go nowhere near it for the weekend.

The histrionic abuse and threats from Willoughby and Prior were something else, even for them. The toxicity seemed to have ramped up a notch.

I don’t think we can (or should) try to stop adults transitioning if that is what they want to do. They’re not doing any harm to others by what they choose to do to their bodies. I like Joyce but I think she’s wrong there. I think she’s right that the underlying belief system of gender ideology is completely incoherent. Discussing and demonstrating that is treated as ‘transphobia’ when it’s just the application of logic to a set of philosophical claims. I also think it’s true that when the claims are properly dismantled, fewer people will support the idea that young people should be encouraged to transition, and will recognise that it does harm.

I still don’t think an adult’s choice is any of anyone else’s business, as long as they’re not demanding I agree with them.

Is there a link to the transcription, please?

I don’t think we can (or should) try to stop adults transitioning if that is what they want to do. They’re not doing any harm to others by what they choose to do to their bodies.

By this reasoning we shouldn't interfere with adults who self harm, who have substance misuse issues, who are morbidly obese and/or eating themselves towards type 2 diabetes, who are suicidal, who recklessly endanger their own safety, who join a cult, who give all their money to internet fraudsters....

Because they're adults and it's their life. FFS.

@tabbycatstripy Would you feel the same if someone wanted to chop their arm off, or their leg, due to a dysphoria? Would you let them bash on because 'they are an adult', or would you try and treat them first before they carried out that act?

It gets complicated though Tabby when we think of children who's parents have transitioned and partners etc (trans widows.) the harm isn't just within the individual's body.

And then they go on tiktok and boast about it....

I think adults probably do have a right to self harm but only with the full information and evidence base provided. It's more permanent than smoking weed or doing drugs. It's more akin to anorexia, which is obviously understood in deeper terms of control and anxiety.

There's an interesting discussion of the impact of the placebo effect of an operation and associated pain on a common shoulder issue. It was found to be purely placebo and the mechanism was the actual operation. (Thanks Malcolm for detailing this.)

Eg plasters for a child who's scraped their knee. Magic.

Trans-able people do exist. By which I mean healthy people who want to be disabled.

‘By this reasoning we shouldn't interfere with adults who self harm, who have substance misuse issues, who are morbidly obese and/or eating themselves towards type 2 diabetes, who are suicidal, who recklessly endanger their own safety, who join a cult, who give all their money to internet fraudsters....’

But when we say ‘intervene’, what do we mean? I have no problem with people saying ‘that’s bullshit’ about the underlying claims of gender ideology. I also have no problem with saying I believe surgical transition is a physical solution to what is probably a psychological issue. But no, we can’t (generally) forcibly prevent people being fat, or drinking alcohol, or endangering themselves, unless they are of truly unsound mind. The bar to being judged unable to make your own choices (even awful choices) is high, and should be high.

I have absolutely no truck with any of the claims of the ideology and I think childhood transition is medical malpractice of the most serious type. But adults (mostly) can do things I don’t think they should do.

‘It gets complicated though Tabby when we think of children who's parents have transitioned and partners etc (trans widows.) the harm isn't just within the individual's body.’

It can get complicated, of course. But I don’t think it’s a basis for making the act of transition unlawful.

Transabled transwoman

No I agree. It can't be unlawful. For psychological reasons as much as anything; people will push back. But it can be honest with effective gatekeeping.

That's all the Helens are saying.

‘Would you feel the same if someone wanted to chop their arm off, or their leg, due to a dysphoria? Would you let them bash on because 'they are an adult', or would you try and treat them first before they carried out that act?’

It’s a contentious question. I don’t know. I think those people are very unwell, and I think people who desire surgical transition are probably unwell as well, but I don’t see it as exactly analogous. Disfigurement of the body would give no benefit at all and is unequivocally harmful, whereas (for me) sex reassignment is more cosmetic, I suppose. A breast reduction, for example, is something a woman might have ordinary reasons for requesting - she doesn’t like the feel of her body, she experiences pain etc. And we wouldn’t say that was harm.

So I think it’s about degree, really. I think gender nullification (as they call it) crosses my personal line as to the difference between alteration and harm. But I’m not sure someone having their genitals altered does altogether.

It’s difficult.

Adults may be able to make choices to self harm, but the NHS should not be paying for it.
Especially when children have to wait months or years for mental health support, and waiting lists for long term and serious conditions are sky high.