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Original poster

So disgusted tonight

790 replies

Mollyollydolly · 03/06/2022 23:29

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

So disgusted tonight
So disgusted tonight
OP posts:
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26
AllCatsAreBeautiful · 03/06/2022 23:32

He’s quoting what she said? I don’t see how it’s out of context or “lies”. What she said sounds terrible because it is terrible.

OldCrone · 03/06/2022 23:44

What's terrible is putting ideas into children's heads that their bodies are wrong and they need to be sterilised and mutilated order to 'be themselves'.

Why wouldn't you want to reduce the number of people who feel this way?

Cailleach1 · 03/06/2022 23:49

AllCatsAreBeautiful · 03/06/2022 23:32

He’s quoting what she said? I don’t see how it’s out of context or “lies”. What she said sounds terrible because it is terrible.

What did she say that is claimed to be terrible? Is it about how children are being sent to surgeons and being medicalised for reasons many would consider beyond belief?

terryleather · 04/06/2022 00:09

If you're pissing off the usual suspects then you're probably doing something right...

Oris · 04/06/2022 00:20

Here's the text from the video shared (over 500k views on Twitter).

So disgusted tonight
Oris · 04/06/2022 00:26

Sorry, that was truncated, here is the full text

So disgusted tonight
Foilball · 04/06/2022 07:23

I'm disgusted too. What she says in the video is disgusting.

She says that she knows that her views won't win popular support and she's right. Most people will recoil at her describing a whole group as a 'big problem' and 'damaged' (even if happily transitioned). It's dehumanising.

She says they should be targeting the lawmakers because the majority of the population don't agree with them - why? Isn't this a democracy?

She says she wants to stop people transitioning - why does she get to decide what other people do with their lives and their bodies?

What she says is disgusting.

terryleather · 04/06/2022 07:50

why does she get to decide what other people do with their lives and their bodies?

She's not queen of everything so she doesn't get to make that decision, ultimately.

And what is being done by others in this instance has real world consequences for the rest of us - friends, family and wider society it's not done in a vacuum.

If you give the subject more than a minutes thought you would see that.

She says they should be targeting the lawmakers because the majority of the population don't agree with them - why? Isn't this a democracy?

Targeting the lawmakers and working quietly behind the scenes via self interested lobby groups was exactly how this assault on women's rights started and progressed as far as it has because the TAs knew if they were to honest present their case to the public it wouldn't fly.

That's not what I'd consider democratic so it's a bit rich to be clutching one's pearls over this.

Motorina · 04/06/2022 08:00

I’ve said before on this board I dated a trans man. Happily transitioned, for many decades.

He emphatically was damaged. Both physically, by the surgery and drugs. And he had ongoing mental health problems that lead to him collapsing fairly spectacularly a couple of years after we broke up.

I reckon transitioning was the least bad outcome for him. But it’s wrong to say he wasn’t damaged by it.

TullyApplebottom · 04/06/2022 08:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RhymesWithOrange · 04/06/2022 08:10

When medics and whistleblowers say that children are transitioning for the wrong reasons, Helen is right to speak out.

When the rate of transition regret is substantial but unknown, Helen is right to speak out.

When doctors are prescribing puberty blockers to 9 year olds after a single conversation over the phone, Helen is right to speak out.

When primary school children are being taught that they can switch from "planet boy to planet girl" just by feelings, Helen or right to speak out.

When young gay men and young lesbian women see transition as a way of escaping homophobia, Helen is right to speak out.

When the link between trans identification and a history of abuse/MH issues/autism/care status is observed but unexplored, Helen is right to speak out.

When the affirmation model is the default, and talking therapy is labelled conversion therapy, Helen is right to speak out.

When suicide stats are misused, and parents are threatened with "better a trans child than a dead child", Helen is right to speak out.

A wish to reduce the number of children choosing to transition is not bigotry, and it's a lazy, agressive accusation designed to shut down debate, it's a recognition of all of the above.

Foilball · 04/06/2022 08:12

RhymesWithOrange · 04/06/2022 08:10

When medics and whistleblowers say that children are transitioning for the wrong reasons, Helen is right to speak out.

When the rate of transition regret is substantial but unknown, Helen is right to speak out.

When doctors are prescribing puberty blockers to 9 year olds after a single conversation over the phone, Helen is right to speak out.

When primary school children are being taught that they can switch from "planet boy to planet girl" just by feelings, Helen or right to speak out.

When young gay men and young lesbian women see transition as a way of escaping homophobia, Helen is right to speak out.

When the link between trans identification and a history of abuse/MH issues/autism/care status is observed but unexplored, Helen is right to speak out.

When the affirmation model is the default, and talking therapy is labelled conversion therapy, Helen is right to speak out.

When suicide stats are misused, and parents are threatened with "better a trans child than a dead child", Helen is right to speak out.

A wish to reduce the number of children choosing to transition is not bigotry, and it's a lazy, agressive accusation designed to shut down debate, it's a recognition of all of the above.

She wasn't talking about children.

Foilball · 04/06/2022 08:15

Motorina · 04/06/2022 08:00

I’ve said before on this board I dated a trans man. Happily transitioned, for many decades.

He emphatically was damaged. Both physically, by the surgery and drugs. And he had ongoing mental health problems that lead to him collapsing fairly spectacularly a couple of years after we broke up.

I reckon transitioning was the least bad outcome for him. But it’s wrong to say he wasn’t damaged by it.

Sorry to hear he had such struggles

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

RhymesWithOrange · 04/06/2022 08:16

She wasn't talking about children

Not all of my points were about children.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/06/2022 08:20

Targeting the lawmakers and working quietly behind the scenes via self interested lobby groups was exactly how this assault on women's rights started and progressed as far as it has because the TAs knew if they were to honest present their case to the public it wouldn't fly.

That's not what I'd consider democratic so it's a bit rich to be clutching one's pearls over this.

Quite.

Motorina · 04/06/2022 08:28

Foilball · 04/06/2022 08:15

Sorry to hear he had such struggles

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

Show quote history

No no, absolutely not! But it’s major surgery and a lifetime of medicalisation. It’s not something that should be undertaken lightly or without recognition of the costs.

axolotlfloof · 04/06/2022 08:32

They were advocating protecting teenage girls from the trauma of transition. I liken it to protecting teenage girls from anorexia in the 90s.
Positive affirmation of children is wrong.

Foilball · 04/06/2022 08:34

How do you know they were talking about teenage girls?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 04/06/2022 08:35

But he was an adult, and he decided on 'the least bad option' - do you think that option should be taken away from him?

Nobody has said that! What HAS been said is that the standard response to any dysphoria should never be unquestioning affirmation. We don't do that to anorexic people or people that self mutilate, cut bodies they don't like to see. Only trans people. Why is that?

We know from a whole host of stories, from detransitioners to trans people who have lived for decades in their chosen gender, even longitudinal studies into MH in transitioned adults, that transitioning does not, in the long term, change feelings of self loathing, depression, discomfort, even suicide ideation. None of it is sugnificantly decreased by any medical intervention, any social changes. Like every other dysphoria the negative mental health aspects are managed only by ongoing psychological intervention.

Google it, use Google Scholar and stretch your knowledge. Grounded Theory studies (where the words and feelings of the participants are the only variables considered) and long term statistical analysis of clinical data all show the same thing. It is interesting to see that in studies using self reporting, where the questions of necessity signpost the study intentions, the opposite results are found. There is, in my opinion, based on reading many varied studies, a desperate need for trans individuals to have utterly unbiased research onto what interventions actually do some good. Shit like this from Jones, Pink News et al are fuck all use to the real trans people being shafted by their fuckwitted politicking.

Joyce and Staniland speak out of compassion for the individuals. Jones, Pink News, Stonewall speak out of self interested political egotism.

Give me an honest and thoughtful response @Foilball Why is the gender dysphoria the only dysphoria we 'need' to treat with absolute acceptance and affirmation?

axolotlfloof · 04/06/2022 08:43

Because the rise in teenage girl referrals are scary for parents who have looked at the stats.
I have attached an image but if you have look at stats in UK, US, Canada, Australia they are similar.
Teenage girls are damaging their bodies at an alarming rate.
This is a future cultural scandal.

So disgusted tonight
WarriorN · 04/06/2022 08:47

I've been reading Malcom Clark's recent threads.

He's detailing issues with the origins of the idea of gender dysphoria as a diagnosis or a "thing."

He looks at a condition where people want limbs amputated. John Money, a founder of the diagnosis of GD, likened the two.

He also looks at multiple identity disorder or disassociative disorder and tracks how one book, where a psych offered to work with a woman for free and also gave her many drugs, kicked off a DID craze. Which was later found to be social contagion but also in collaboration with psychiatry. Patients admitted they felt they had to agree. Denial was given as proof of the condition.

why does she get to decide what other people do with their lives and their bodies?

When you understand where it's all come from and what drives is (DID is making a come back via tiktok) are they truly making these decisions about their lives?

Or is it covered by society, social media and ultimately pharmaceutical industry?

Lupron gets x4 the cash when administering to children than adults.

We have adults who've taken pb with hearts the size of 9 yr old children. We have adults who transitioned at 25, 42 10 years later truly regretting it due to how unwell they've become.

Who's really deciding what happens to their bodies? Can they consent?

WarriorN · 04/06/2022 08:49

Malcolm's thread, very good at historical evidence references and has referenced threads within threads.

twitter.com/twisterfilm/status/1478230008732737537?s=21&t=ftBXXvCqCL8Q3qm3dghgmg

WarriorN · 04/06/2022 08:54

We also need to consider the fact that the US is enormous. It relies on private healthcare.

Ask and you get. Supply and demand, demand and supply.

The industry is very lucrative.

The internet means the rest of the world gets easy access to American trends.

Here, we have the nhs and the need more evidence, hence Cass. There's no evidence base. It's all experimental.

(Btw The first surgeon to do a vaginalplasty was apparently also a nazi surgical experimenter who experimented on and sterilised disabled people.)

AlisonDonut · 04/06/2022 08:54

Foilball · 04/06/2022 08:34

How do you know they were talking about teenage girls?

Foiball.

If trans people are in such distress, and research shows that transitioning doesn't lessen the distress - then why shouldn't two people want less people in distress?

Why shouldn't two people want less people to lose their breasts, to lose the ability for adult sexual function, to end up sterile, to have early onset menopause, to have osteroporsis in their 20s, to end up with brittle bones and walking with sticks?

Surely you aren't advocating for more people to suffer the consequences of being given the same drugs that they use to castrate rapists?

WarriorN · 04/06/2022 08:56

So yes. They're right.