So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

‘But it can be honest with effective gatekeeping.’

I agree.

‘Adults may be able to make choices to self harm, but the NHS should not be paying for it. Especially when children have to wait months or years for mental health support, and waiting lists for long term and serious conditions are sky high.’

Possibly true. I think if someone has a diagnosis of serious and lasting dysphoric feelings, I can get behind contributing to making them feel better. But I also think there needs to be an enormous amount of research to fill the gaps in the evidence base about what the modern phenomenon of gender ideology is actually about.

I stopped reading the G a while back thanks to their series on “living in a woman’s body” that featured - yep, you’ve guessed it - men.

Yes this, I am gender critical through and through but that’s doesn’t mean I don’t think genuinely trans people shouldn’t be able to live how they want or stop them from transitioning. From reading that transcript that’s horrific.

Yes I think we have to be very careful with the children but if your an adult it’s your choice.

Doesn’t mean I think we should get rid of sex either. Just that if you decide to opt out of your birth sex, that’s fine, but you can’t opt into the other sex either. It’s essentially that they have become unsexed in my eyes and instead ‘gendered’ and that’s fine too but in certain circumstances will require special accommodations.

Part of the reason I was so upset by the trans issue (over it now because I am not taking the mental load for the worlds stupidity); was that many young adults were transitioning at a time when the whole world was saying they can opt into the other sex wholly. I knew that would never stand the test of time and I found it very cruel that people were transitioning based on false promises, and the effect this would have in later life when the middle ground arose.

@Foilball

I see a difference between those who claim transgenderism is a civil rights issue and those who say it's a mental health issue (gender dysphoria).

The furious reaction to even the concept of a reduction in those who identify as trans seems to be coming from the civil rights group.

So I have a question foilball. Would you like to see a cure for gender dysphoria?

I’m confused: your final sentence here contradicts your opening paragraph. What do you mean to say?

‘but that’s doesn’t mean I don’t think genuinely trans people shouldn’t be able to live how they want or stop them from transitioning.’

Whereas I am in the camp that agrees we shouldn’t prevent adults ‘transitioning’, but I have no idea what is denoted by ‘genuinely trans’. That isn’t snark, I just don’t believe there is any objective criteria for that label.

From reading that transcript that’s horrific.

Where did you read the full transcript, please?

Sorry - my question is for @LemonSwan

I am meaning to say society should have been very clear from the get go that transitioning to be a trans women means you can’t go into women’s sport, jails, toilets etc.

I found it a complete mental mind fuck that people were trying to delete the existence of sex or to conflate it with wholly the same as gender. I have huge sympathy for say 18yos who transitioned based on this and will have to go through same but in reverse (ie, that gender and sex aren’t the same and won’t be treated the same when they transitioned at a time where they were told by society it would be).

I hope that makes sense

Going back to your question @WarriorN I probably skated over what you asked about children whose parents transition as I find it so difficult to answer. But it has to be answered. The child’s welfare is paramount. Your father presenting as female and making alterations to his body doesn’t make him your mother, and (in my humble opinion) when children are forced to pretend otherwise it’s harmful. Depending on circumstances I think there should be social services involvement if a child is subjected to compelled speech in this way.

Whereas I am in the camp that agrees we shouldn’t prevent adults ‘transitioning’, but I have no idea what is denoted by ‘genuinely trans’. That isn’t snark, I just don’t believe there is any objective criteria for that label.

This is the thing. Is it AGP, a sexual fetish, is it internalised homophobia, is it social contagion, is it wanting to escape being female, for instance due to so much objectification.

Because, we all know, it's not 'being born in the wrong body'. So why wouldn't you want to address all those reasons and reduce them in society?

My question would be what is the motivation for transition that is considered beneficial and positive enough to be causing the outrage over the concept of reducing numbers.

Just to ask again - is the main point of the OP the fact that what was said attracted death threats and violence? What was said that justified this?

It's from 4m15s in this video

Really good point. I agree fully with both the Helens, if people disagree they should argue with reasons. Violent threats are not something that should be tolerated.

‘My question would be what is the motivation for transition that is considered beneficial and positive enough to be causing the outrage over the concept of reducing numbers.’

I think it’s confirmation bias. They transitioned (they feel) happily so they assume everyone is happy and will continue to be happy. But actually we don’t know enough about it yet. If you pump a twelve year old full of Lupron and then a sixteen year old full of the wrong hormones for their body, where do they stand when they’re sixty? What will their heart, their brain, their bones, their cognition look like? What will be their likely psychological state? We don’t have that information and won’t have it for several decades at the right scale to understand the risks.

As a sidenote I'm very glad that the issue of why people transition is being addressed. It needs to be talked about and looked at. All of it.

Forensically.

And yes, the violent reaction needs to be unpicked, too.

And obviously the death threats are vile and unacceptable (also unsurprising).

Well I agree this is part of the problem, I don’t know where the line is exactly but to me genuinely trans is akin to the old transsexuals and not genuinely trans to the old cross dressers.

In modern terms it’s hard to quantify and I think that’s where part of the main problem that arises in determining the balance of the right middle ground.

Right now where we have ‘can be Mary on a Tuesday’ - I am of the opinion it’s just a firm all round no for access to any female only space.

If say we have fully transitioned transsexuals separated from Bob who’s also Mary then I may change my mind on that for lower risk spaces.

But the few studies we do have don't seem to show that transitioning increases the happiness and well-being of those who undergo it.

So it might be confirmation bias, in the short term, or for a few of them, but it still doesn't address the question of what is the reason for the transition in the first place.

Yes, Lemon. The aggressive expansionist strategy has been a failure and resulted in a backlash. People might now reject the whole thing, which would be a shame because trans-identifying people aren’t doing anything wrong by trying to make themselves feel comfortable.

‘But the few studies we do have don't seem to show that transitioning increases the happiness and well-being of those who undergo it.’

I think you’re right.

Violent threats are not something that should be tolerated.

They are violence against women and need to be called out loud and clear - and to my mind anyway the main focus and issue.

From 'it's a difficulty'

HJ continues:

You know?
I mean, I know that sounds heartless and I'm trying to say exactly the opposite of sounding heartless.
I'm saying every one of those people - for 50, 60, 70 years - is going to need things that the rest of us just don't need, because the rest of us are just our sex.
So the fewer of those people there are, the better, in a sane world that I hope we will reach.

end of quote

Now it does indeed sound heartless, but what I think she is saying is that if people can be supported through feelings of discomfort with their sexed body that may be transient (which is the role of therapy, surely?) then it might be that the number of people opting to have surgery and become lifelong medical patients may be reduced and that would be a good thing for them. Accepting that medical / surgical transition will absolutely be the best outcome for some of those people, but we know from detransitioners that it isn't the right path for everyone.

If they had said "children" I would have agreed wholeheartedly. But honestly, adults should be free to live their lives however they wish. The statements made in this video certainly don't represent my own GC views (although of course I don't condone abuse/threats of violence)

I have no desire to dissuade adults from transitioning to whatever degree makes them feel confortable. But I still believe that biological sex is real, and often more important than gender identity .