So disgusted tonight

[Mollyollydolly]

Owen Jones and Pink News tweeted about the two Helens, Joyce and Staniland and their YouTube chat .. Jones taking what they said completely out of context it's resulted in some of the most vile abuse aimed at Helen Joyce in particular on twitter tonight. So many death threats.

I wish there was something we could do, it's so utterly vile, it's time they were held to account for their lies. It's really upsetting.

Owen Jones isn't fit to lace Helen's shoes, I cant believe The Guardian still employ him. I've seen threats to murder, throw napalm in their faces from Joss Prior and many many more. It's disgusting and all down to Owen.

How can this stand up to any level of journalistic ethics or integrity.

It's time we did something, some kind of collective action.

but who accept that some people are genuinely trans.

What do you mean by 'genuinely trans?'

I agree with Datun.

There is a genetic intervention for spinal muscular atrophy of a particular severity that can be fatal and has a substantial impact on quality of life.

www.england.nhs.uk/2021/03/nhs-england-strikes-deal-on-life-saving-gene-therapy-drug-that-can-help-babies-with-rare-genetic-disease-move-and-walk/

Shortly, there will be genetic therapies for cystic fibrosis and haemophilia. These will reduce the numbers of people whose longevity and quality of life are affected by these conditions.

I don't think it's reasonable to tear apart sentences in isolation from the rest of a discussion.

Yes. It's one of the reasons that I've asked for a link to a full transcription and not screenshots of parts of it. I'm quite perturbed by the posters who respond with some degree of clamour and distress without any good faith posting of the entire piece that might establish the general context of what seems to be a conversation that lasted for more than an hour.

‘Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. It seems to me that you, and probably many others here, DO think there is a medical problem/mental disorder/something that can be "cured", but when you're challenged you backtrack.’

No, you haven’t understood me. I’m sorry, I probably wasn’t clear. I think it’s entirely possible (even probable) that the state some people call ‘trans’ arises from predominantly psychological factors. It may be a medical condition as well. I suppose that is an example of a social construct - what we regard as a medical problem is partially a constructed reality.

So I am not backtracking. I just don’t know.

I also have no idea whether or not it can be ‘cured’.

It’s interesting just how many excuses will be made, how many knots people will twist themselves up in to deny the reality that what they said was really quite transphobic. Interesting that people are falling over themselves to say “oh no they didn’t mean that, they meant x”. Read what they said. Listen to them again.

sone posters have made excellent posts explaining different viewpoints. It’s not wrong to say that the language they use is harmful, even if you agree with their general points.

You are misinterpreting that, I think.

Dysphoria is a medical condition.

Being gay is a sexual orientation.

Both are real, exist.

There are also other ways of being transgender, but one of the T+C's here prevents discussion of them as suggesting that some are a sexual fetish is, apparently, an unacceptable insult. So, despite it too existing, being real, we cannot discuss it without risking deletion or a ban.

Which means that sometimes we end up with an oddly stilted conversation or one that has an obvious elephant in the room. Like this one...

The fact is there is zero evidence there is some kind of innate trans person. Body dysphoria is a medical, mental health problem. Having to go in for body modification to alleviate it is a poor outcome.

I agree. This is what most people are tiptoeing around.

Which means that sometimes we end up with an oddly stilted conversation or one that has an obvious elephant in the room. Like this one...

The other pachyderm in the room is that in the old days 'trans' really meant a form of body dysmorphia - a feeling that one's body was not right for them and that they should not have a penis or whatever. This was rare and complex and in some cases 'cured' only by surgery - 'cured' in quote marks because it involved (and still involves) radical and dangerous surgery and the results are often not brilliant. Now we are supposed to believe that people 'feel a gender inside' or that their brains don't match their gender or similar. Beyond this we are told that humans (all of us) somehow 'feel a gender inside' and if this does not match with biological reality then surgery is required. I'm sorry, but there are multiple aspects of this that do not match my lived experience of feeling the brutal reality of being forcibly 'gendered' as feminine under patriarchal rule rather than it being an essential part me.

This is depressing. I want to be part of a group of people who oppose the extremism that the trans movement has become, but who accept that some people are genuinely trans. That isn't what I'm finding here at the moment.

Well this is the place to say exactly what you mean 😁

What do you mean by genuinely trans?

You're liking it to sexual orientation? How are you doing that?

Someone who is homosexual doesn't 'feel' like they are attracted to the opposite sex, but they're not really. They actually are.

What equivalence with being trans, are you trying to draw?

Read what they said.

I agree to read what they said. Do you have a link to the full transcription, please?

Thank for your question, Datun.

First should say that I think there is effectively an epidemic of trans hysteria, for want of a better word, among very young people. In particular it's clear that not all the autistic teenage girls presenting as trans are actually trans. In the same way that anorexia and self-harming tend to go in cycles, being trans is a current coping strategy for some confused young people who are not trans. This wouldn't be too bad if they were left alone but of course the current fashion for early medical intervention is dangerous and causing irreversible damage in some cases.

To answer your question. What do I think it actually is? I think it's similar to homosexuality in that it resides in physical differences in the brain. We know far too little about the brain to confidently say how trans individuals differ from staight ones, gay ones, autistic ones or anything else. But the preliminary studies I've looked at do seem to show some differences. I don't have studies to hand as it's a while since I researched all this.

What I don't think it is, is a lifestyle a choice, a fashion statement or a mental illness. I don't think it can be cured any more than being gay or autistic can be cured. Do people here belive that homosexuality can be cured? Until fairly recently it was classed as a mental illness in the DSM, but now it's understood as innate. I remember a time when autism was largely blamed on faulty parenting. We know better now. Why should it be any different with being trans?

The trans people I know and have known have been very clear about what they believe. They know they are of the sex their gentitalia suggests. But that makes them very unhappy because they don't feel whichever sex it is. Exactly what that means is hard for them to articulate but it's very clear to them and very real. I don't know anyone who has had surgery but I do know those who take hormones. They are much happier living as the opposite sex, but they realise this causes problems in society and do everything they can to minimise those problems. In other words they are the polar opposite of strident trans activists.

What I assumed was that a group of people as articulate and educated as those on this board, would understand this. I thought they'd be opposed to all the extreme stuff, but not tar all trans people with the same brush.

We oppose the erosion of women's rights. We oppose the insane adoption of extremist trans ideology by all our major institutions. And we oppose the damage being done to people under 18 as a result of all this.

But if people here think being trans is a mental illness, a medical problem or a lifestyle choice, then this isn't the place for me.

It shouldn't matter whether a person is 'genuinely trans' - whatever that may mean - or just trying it on for size.

People should have the right, and theoretically do have this right, to present however they wish. However they do not and cannot have the right to trample over others in their pursuit of living as their authentic self.

This

People should have the right, and theoretically do have this right, to present however they wish. However they do not and cannot have the right to trample over others in their pursuit of living as their authentic self.

This.

Yes, you're describing gender dysphoria. And you're putting it down to a physical cause.

There is, as far as I'm aware, no evidence to support this. I believe the studies that were done on brains actually tested for homosexuality, not gender confusion. And one of the conclusions drawn, wasnt the wrong brain in the wrong body, but that there is a preponderance for intense self examination.

If there was some kind of genetic testing that you could do to prove whether or not somebody had the brain of the opposite sex, then you would see every trans person clamouring to fund the research into it, because it would legitimise their position once and for all.

The headlines would be everywhere.

that's not happening. There is no body of evidence to support it.

And whereas I understand the argument that says well we just haven't found the evidence yet, we have found the narratives of men who transition. And that doesn't support the 'born in the wrong body' theory either.

It gets unnecessary over complicated with a massive layer of sexism when people really think that a man can be a woman, simply based on the way he thinks or feels.

The definition of a woman is not a man with gender dysphoria.

If gender dysphoria is caused by some kind of genetic abnormality, then let's fund the research into identifying it. Think of the massive amounts of angst and heartache that would save.

What I assumed was that a group of people as articulate and educated as those on this board, would understand this. I thought they'd be opposed to all the extreme stuff, but not tar all trans people with the same brush.

How can we tell the difference?

We oppose the erosion of women's rights. We oppose the insane adoption of extremist trans ideology by all our major institutions. And we oppose the damage being done to people under 18 as a result of all this.

Where are your voices?

But if people here think being trans is a mental illness, a medical problem or a lifestyle choice, then this isn't the place for me.

They know they are of the sex their gentitalia suggests. But that makes them very unhappy because they don't feel whichever sex it is.

But why is this not a mental illness and what is it about the brain that supposedly results from "physical differences in the brain" that is not a mental illness? The difference between this and homosexuality is that the former does not require medical intervention but 'being trans' somehow does and yet it is not an illness?

To answer your question. What do I think it actually is? I think it's similar to homosexuality in that it resides in physical differences in the brain. We know far too little about the brain to confidently say how trans individuals differ from staight ones, gay ones, autistic ones or anything else. But the preliminary studies I've looked at do seem to show some differences. I don't have studies to hand as it's a while since I researched all this.

But that's just your personal view, one theory, and as you acknowledge, you don't really have anything to back it up with that you can cite.

It’s interesting just how many excuses will be made, how many knots people will twist themselves up in to deny the reality that what they said was really quite transphobic.

There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.

It would help if people looking to pathologize trans people could learn the difference.

The rhetoric by Helen Joyce was undeniably abusive and transphobic, it weakens the credibility of everybody who pretends otherwise.

Why is saying something is a mental illness completely beyond the pale? Some people, regardless of personal gender identity, do undoubtedly have mental illnesses and personality disorders, don't they? What about them?

There is a lot of people mixing up gender incongruence and gender dysphoria on this thread.

It would help if people looking to pathologize trans people could learn the difference.

How will they learn the difference and understand what you mean, unless you explain it? Or don't you want to educate us?

The same could be said for the Gender-critical groups.

Gender incongruence refers to an individual's discontent with their assigned gender and the identification with a gender other than that of their birth sex. The ‘dysphoria’ relates to the distress and unease experienced.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1751722220301554

Why do you think the distinction between gender incongruence and gender dysphoria is so important? The above quote indicates that they're both part of the same condition.

Gender incongruence is the manifestation of natural diversity.

Gender dysphoria is the medicalised dissonance between the naturally innate incongruence, and the binary man-made society.

Gender incongruence is innate, gender dysphoria isn't.