What are your thoughts on this image?

[Crocsandshocks]

Apparently Facebook allow this despite apparently not allowing female nipples. I'm so confused!

Or man, for that matter.

I have read that the proportion of trans men on testosterone who continue to have periods is less than one half, and if they follow the current medical recommendations of getting a hysterectomy within six years from the start of hormone therapy, then most of them after six years would not have them at all. It would be interesting to know exactly what percentage of all 'people who menstruate' in fact don't want to be called women, though I suspect that the majority of them are those who identify as nonbinary, but haven't taken any hormones.

This reminds me of how I used to think of transgender and nonbinary identifications about ten years ago when I was much more 'inclusive', not yet knowing that the price of inclusion is the erasure of the female sex (like in that picture, where something only people of the female sex can do is reframed as a gender-neutral thing):

This was not clearly thought out, but I believed that most of us are women or men because our bodies are female or male, respectively, and that this was going to be the prevailing understanding, with other groups separated by their gender identities. The majority would honour those identities, and the identity minorities would honour the fact that most see women and men as biology-based categories.

I knew that the division was not really logical, but was driven by 'be kind' and 'what does it matter what others do' values. Still, this would have worked, because trans men, for instance, do know that they are female, what with that 'trans' in front of the 'men.'

But this didn't happen, as we know. Rather, the separating gender identities absolutely demand that women and men now mean nothing but some abstract identities. Here 'be kind' has been weaponised against the female sex.

I can see why trans men and female nonbinary people are not bothered by the immense problems this causes (how do you fight sexism if you cannot name its victims etc.), given that they have made private arrangements to escape misogyny and sexism. Some of those work (surgery and hormones), some do not (declaring pronouns with no body modifications). But either way, this is a big leap backward in women's rights.

I have read that the proportion of trans men on testosterone who continue to have periods is less than one half, and if they follow the current medical recommendations of getting a hysterectomy within six years from the start of hormone therapy, then most of them after six years would not have them at all. It would be interesting to know exactly what percentage of all 'people who menstruate' in fact don't want to be called women, though I suspect that the majority of them are those who identify as nonbinary, but haven't taken any hormones.

This reminds me of how I used to think of transgender and nonbinary identifications about ten years ago when I was much more 'inclusive', not yet knowing that the price of inclusion is the erasure of the female sex (like in that picture, where something only people of the female sex can do is reframed as a gender-neutral thing):

This was not clearly thought out, but I believed that most of us are women or men because our bodies are female or male, respectively, and that this was going to be the prevailing understanding, with other groups separated by their gender identities. The majority would honour those identities, and the identity minorities would honour the fact that most see women and men as biology-based categories.

I knew that the division was not really logical, but was driven by 'be kind' and 'what does it matter what others do' values. Still, this would have worked, because trans men, for instance, do know that they are female, what with that 'trans' in front of the 'men.'

But this didn't happen, as we know. Rather, the separating gender identities absolutely demand that women and men now mean nothing but some abstract identities. Here 'be kind' has been weaponised against the female sex.

I can see why trans men and female nonbinary people are not bothered by the immense problems this causes (how do you fight sexism if you cannot name its victims etc.), given that they have made private arrangements to escape misogyny and sexism. Some of those work (surgery and hormones), some do not (declaring pronouns with no body modifications). But either way, this is a big leap backward in women's rights

Spot on. I was much more inclusive 10 years ago too, before I realised the misogyny underpinning much of this narrative.

nepeta I like your description of making a 'private arrangement' to escape misogyny. I've always disliked the implication that I'm just tickety boo with all the gendered crap and stereotypes of being a woman. I'm not 'happy' being a woman - I just accept that I am one and that there is no escaping that fact.

And in parallel, in the new relationships and sexuality education curriculum, children are being allowed to choose their genders from age 4 without the teachers telling the parents. I recently asked one of dcs teachers if she could let me know what was being taught in a rse class with my 6 year old and she didn't bother answering me.

It makes me think females who have mastectomies still have periods. Is that the point?

My response - it’s very, very sad. I find mastectomy scars upsetting. I think this is a generation where living shorter lives than their parents will be normal, and there’ll be far fewer young people in the West in 20 years (fewer giving birth). I’m not shocked anymore, just deeply troubled that medics are allowing this, and not addressing obvious psychological factors intensely before resorting to allowing people to do this to themselves. Whatever happened to “Do No Harm”?

But these are all women and girls who have had mastectomies, n'est ce pas? Otherwise they wouldn't be menstruating. (I know those shots are artificial, but the insinuation is that their bodies can menstruate and so must be female)

The difference, is that they appear to have chosen to have it done for cosmetic (or identity) reasons; not like other women for necessary medical reasons due to disease or physical ailments.

I am quite bemused at the rate of body tattoos. They do appear to be quite in thrall to appearance, and dependent on the how others perceive them.

Depressing picture.

I find it weird that we're supposed to instantly read flat chests as male when ubiquitous images of fashion models up until 5 seconds ago almost always had this physique.

It must be the lack of flowing, girly identifying hair.

Or perhaps my previous frame of reference for "woman" was supposed to be porn.

For me the legs of males and females always look completely differently shaped (and obviously hips) but I'm glad it's not a thing to try and butcher healthy female legs too.

Eh? The people in the photograph presumably want to be identified as men. I don't think it's just the mastectomies and "the lack of flowing, girly identifying hair" which mark them as trans men. There's at least 2 of them who, absent any other information, I would take to be natal men.

That was more likely transwomen as they can't bear the symbol for woman being linked to a bodily function they can never experience.

Nope - it was a female bodied person.

Women get periods. I'm sick of this shit!

There is a lot of tattoos in that picture.

My thought are

1. That's a bit gross. Fake but still gross. 2. Its interesting that so many of the people the picture are covered in basically the same tattoos. If they got a random group of breast cancer sufferers or women who'd been through early menopause or anything else like that, I would expect to see a completely diverse group of people of varying ages and from all walks of life. But this picture looks like a bunch of people all from the same subculture or social group. How interesting that being born in the wrong body only affects one particular age and subculture...

This.
But also, why don't we hear "some men have breasts, get over it"
Very, very sad image 🥲

Absolutely

this picture looks like a bunch of people all from the same subculture

Yes.

I'm not trans myself, but I can understand trans people not wanting to be labelled female if they feel so strongly about it that they've had their breasts removed.
But the ad is a bit too in your face (I would say that if they were all female by choice too). Maybe given some of the hate surrounding trans it's necessary to put it out there like that, though.
Live and let live!

• Does it surprise you to know trans people exist?*

I'd say with all of the days of remembrance and awareness, if there's anyone left who doesn't know they exist, then something has gone severely wrong!

Genius, love this.

Ironically that’s the last thing it is.

Do you think it is healthy to allow someone to deny the material reality of their sex? Gender is different, but sex?