A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

[Soubriquet]

A website has said they have lost many followers with supporting this.

I just don’t understand why this is being promoted. If men in general were able to breastfeed children, why is this not being encouraged among married couples? Im sure plenty of men would be willing to step up and share breastfeeding with their partner.

It can’t be healthy for a baby to be fed this way, as surely the transwoman would be taking multiple type of hormones in order to remain transitioned?

Link

the views of many posters on this thread seem to be coloured by an underlying belief that trans women are generally self serving, narcissistic, delusional, and often primarily driven by unhealthy sexual interests. I think past experience has shown that prejudices of that type about whole categories of people are unhelpful and often dangerous.

The topic is about MALES. MALES taking drugs, typically drug induced, to breastfeed infants a substance of unknown nutritional value that has potential chemical risks.

Let’s stop talking about transitioned males. The topic is MALES.

What benefit is delivered to the infant in this case?

Do you understand that a breastfed baby has milk that the mother’s body has produced to react to the needs of that child specifically for the child at that very time? Done by interactions only a female body can do?

Again, exactly what benefit is a male feeding a chemical laden substance (including testosterone because we know estrogen crosses into milk) to an infant ?

Not one poster supporting males doing this has covered any supposed benefits.

@Soubriquet et al

How do you feel about women taking synthetic hormones when they're breastfeeding? It's worth noting that the mini pill, contraceptive implant and combined pill (less likely to be recommended, but due to risk to mother, not baby), are all commonly taken by breastfeeding mothers.

I would be interested in knowing how the hormones taken by transwoman compare to this, and if the existing body of literature regarding safety is therefore comparable.

Lots of people seem to be frustrated because many women struggle to breastfeed and they do not get this level of support. But if you paid privately, as this couple did, you would get access to the same level of care?

I would agree with the frustration if it was something being offered on the NHS but it isn't. In addition, synthetic hormones have already been examined in terms of helping women breastfeeding, with no evidence that they are effective.

FWIW, I'm not convinced on this. There's a lot of unknowns, isn't essential for the child, and isn't essential for the parent either. Breastfeeding isn't a universal experience and many women don't/aren't able to do it with their child, and have other ways of bonding.

But the thread is full of transphobia - so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims. I agree with other posters about it seeming like an echo chamber here and I feel for any transpeople who look at these threads. Someone has found a disgusting quote and ascribed it to the person who the thread is about - it's nothing to with them. A very basic scan will show you the name/date don't match.

But the thread is full of transphobia - so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims

I mean this sincerely, but what part is transphobia? It seems anything criticising any trans person (or anything they don't love) is transphobic. It's lost all meaning.

If you mean concern about nipple stimulation- we've already had at least one person boldly admitting to it. And men aren't the same as women. I could go on.

So hormones that have been researched for safety during breastfeeding?

And in infants where the effects female sex hormones are known due to millions of years experience?

I mean this sincerely, but what part is transphobia? It seems anything criticising any trans person (or anything they don't love) is transphobic. It's lost all meaning.

Maybe this poster meant we are being misandrist? Because we are discussing MALES.

But but but 50% of women get off while they're breastfeeding don't they? That's what we're told isn't it?

How UTTERLY transphobic of you to find a transwoman saying the same disgusting.

I'd be interested to see if any women do find breastfeeding 'erotic' as the NCT suggests. I suspect a big fat 0%.

Can someone do a poll over on aibu? I can't as I'm on the app.

the views of many posters on this thread seem to be coloured by an underlying belief that trans women are generally self serving, narcissistic, delusional, and often primarily driven by unhealthy sexual interests. I think past experience has shown that prejudices of that type about whole categories of people are unhelpful and often dangerous.

Well, and this is just a hunch, people's opinions might be 'coloured' by the individual in question asking not to be judged by saying they got off on it and that it was more exciting than anything a partner could do to them.

so many arguments that aren't evidence or science based and a huge amount of derogatory claims

I haven't seen any evidence or science based claims at any point for feeding an infant a substance which has not been scrutinised in (seemly) any way whatsoever.

Any research which has done so, I would be genuinely interested to read and may well give me a different perspective on the whole situation.

But no such research appears to have been done. The very research that should have been done as a starting point - what is the benefit to the child.

We see the words 'echo chamber' thrown a lot on this board. This tends to be by posters who lack the evidence to back up claims or the critical thinking to evaluate why the evidence which should back up their argument doesn't exist. A journal article/research paper etc etc which shows the composition of the milk secreted by males who have been induced to produce milk showing that it is comparable to breast milk produced by females should be able to blow many of the arguments against it out of the water surely? If no such research exists, why?

How do you feel about women taking synthetic hormones when they're breastfeeding? It's worth noting that the mini pill, contraceptive implant and combined pill (less likely to be recommended, but due to risk to mother, not baby), are all commonly taken by breastfeeding mothers.

Why do posters not realise they are posting on a site called Mumsnet? And that some of the posters on this thread HAVE breastfed, have also experienced having to make the decisions about contraception and many other substances, including wine?

It is posts like this that make readers and other posters very wary of who is censuring women discussing males, of any gender, taking treatment to feed an unknown substance to their infants.

It is almost like… um… some women have some knowledge about a topic and are discussing it from a child led perspective.

Who the fuck wants this discussion stopped?

Nope, I don't mean "anything criticising any trans person or anything they don't love". This thread very obviously has lots of claims that are based on a dislike of trans people, rather than critcisims that are logical or evidence based.

For example:

• just above - stating that I must mean misandry instead of transphobia. Come on now, this is a trans issue, I mean transphobia. If someone is a transwoman, it is crap to insist on referring to them as a man.


• claiming it would be better for babies to breastfeed from a female mammal (!) instead of a transwoman.


• the claims that all TW are doing this as part of sexual fetish and therefore must be peadophiles. This reminds me of the claims about gay men that used to be commonplace.


• refusing to say milk and instead using emotive terms "drug induced secretions", "chemical laden discharge", etc. Biologically, it is milk.


• ignoring the fact that many women take synthetic hormones whilst breastfeeding, and that adoptive mothers have used this protocol previously. As I've said - I would be intersted to know how the levels of synthetic hormones compare, but if that are comparable then we have a lot of safety data.

As I've said just above, I'm not pro this, for a variety of reasons. But they're all based on logical thinking.

I don't understand this reply? Or think it's necessary to imply I'm actually a man? Feel free to do an AS and you can see I'm very much a woman.

If you know it's common for woman to take synthetic hormones when breastfeeding, don't you think this is the kind of evidence that should be considered when thinking about the safety aspects? Are the hormones & doses comparable? Are risks between woman & transwoman likely to be similar? I just think it's a very relevant point when many posters seem to be claiming this is completely new ground (i.e., babies being exposed to synthethic hormones via breastmilk).

Where have I said I want the discussion stopped?

The accusation of ‘echo chamber’ is a tactic relying on emotional manipulation and shame to silence discussion.

Instead, bring on the evidence that supports this as being of any benefit to the child?

Otherwise, ‘echo chamber’ has gone the way of ‘transphobia’ in that it can be ignored as a tactic and meaningless.

But please crack on with those studies and are about the benefit to the child.

Come on now, this is a trans issue, I mean transphobia. If someone is a transwoman, it is crap to insist on referring to them as a man.

So, read the thread. We also have had a poster discussing their husband, so all males.

Language is important. Trans people are not denying their biological sex we have been repeatedly told by trans people themselves (including the transitioned males who were quite active on Mn FWR last time this was discussed and were up front in saying it was an extreme group who wanted this) and their lobby groups.

Therefore, please explain to us why discussing males as a sex class is not appropriate in this very specific instance?

claiming it would be better for babies to breastfeed from a female mammal (!) instead of a transwoman.

Female mammal milk has been used for a very long time to feed human infants. It is known what the effects are.

Your points continue to miss the fact that the effects of the drugs involved here and the hormones are unknown.

When you have the specialist who treated one transitioned male to be able to do this, refuse to do it on themselves with their own newborn or any age infant, and this was within the past 5 years if I remember correctly, that needs to be considered. They wrote that the effects long term on the infant was unknown and that specialist doctor was not going to take the risk.

You freely admit that you think it's disgusting for the transwoman in the stranger article to have admitted to getting off on it, yet accuse us of transphobia when we do the same. 🤔

@Helleofabore

You appear to want to trip me up but I'm not sure why?

The comment was about my post. The thread is about a transwoman.

There has been no appetite for men (not transwoman) to start taking female hormones so they can breastfeed. If that changes then yes of course it would become a issue around men and not just transwoman.

But right now it isn't and it seems like just another way to insist that transwoman must be referred to as men.

Or think it's necessary to imply I'm actually a man?

I neither know nor care.

refusing to say milk and instead using emotive terms "drug induced secretions", "chemical laden discharge", etc. Biologically, it is milk.

please provide the evidence of the compound analysis of the substance along with the effects on the child.

You are perfectly welcome to call it milk, but I do not need to call it milk until I am assured that the chemicals and the hormones that cross over are of nutritional value to any infant.

Just because you choose to call it milk, and to say it is just like a mother’s milk for her infant, doesn’t make it so.

Eh? I don't think this is the board for me when you repeatedly misinterpret what I say to try and cause an argument and derail.

You're conflating two things to try and make me sound unhinged.

-Clearly, if someone is saying they transistioned, had a baby, and are now breastfeeding to get sexual pleasure, that is incredibly disturbing. I don't disagree and I don't think any other sane person would either. It's also obviously not transphobic to speak out against something that is clearly a child protection issues.

-Ascribing this narrative to all transwoman, such as a the person in this thread, is what is transphobic. This includes linking quotes to her which are from some other person.

Why can't you see the difference?

claiming it would be better for babies to breastfeed from a female mammal (!) instead of a transwoman.

Too right I would prefer my DC to have milk from another female mammal rather than a TW. Cows/goats/sheep, hell a bear would be preferable to some shite coming out of a male body that is chemically created/manipulated.

That doesn't make me transphobic as I'm sure a lot of TW would agree it can't be healthy for the baby.

I don't have a problem with TW, live and let live etc but I do have a problem with (I'm guessing) a very small minority forcing a baby to suckle from whatever it is coming out of their breasts.

I'm also very concerned by that TW posted above who said they got off on the baby sucking the nipple, that is pure child abuse and it is disgusting. I appreciate that's probably not the majority view from TW (at least I hope not) but as usual the outspoken minority ruin it for the rest.

If someone is a transwoman, it is crap to insist on referring to them as a man.

When people make remarks like this, I often wonder how they think a well-formed shared decision-making healthcare discussion would proceed on that basis.

The conversation in this thread is about men even if the OP is about a TW. Inducing this phenomenon in men would substantially influence the clinical discussion about forms of support for lactation (pharmaceutical, non-pharmaceutical etc.).

I've no idea who is advocating for the wellbeing of the notional infant at the heart of this discussion. I would echo PPs in waiting for a bibliography of well designed trials, systematic reviews, and nutritive and immunological analyses of the fluid that centre the needs of the infant rather than the men.

This thread!

Why the continued insistence on trying to claim I said things I most certainly did not?

No I didn't say "it is just like mother's milk", yes I already said in my post I'm not pro because of the many unknowns, including the composition.

Why pull me up on this specifically, when I didn't say it, and ignore all other points in most?

Please report any posts referring to transitioned males as ‘men.’

As I mentioned, a poster told us how how husband would have done this, so the thread has now moved on to all males.

I agree. Imagine putting your own wants and needs above your child's basic needs.

Women choose not to breastfeed if they are taking certain medication or are going to have alcohol because they don't want to pass it in the breast milk to their baby.

I just can't imagine choosing this option that's been promoted over bottle feeding when you know it's absolutely safe. It's just plain and simple selfishness.

If you want to and can breast feed naturally great, if you choose not to or can't then you choose formula as we know it's safe.

I cannot get my head around it.