Amber Heard&Johnny Depp trial

[Miscfeminista]

I wanted to hear more thoughts from women who actually don't accuse Amber for being"a faker". I don't want to tip toe around it or argue with people over same thing over and over while they pretend they are unbiased when in fact they just support Depp.

A lot has already been said and I know you need to have diverse opinions for better conversation etc but on the other thread I am, I'm so tired of people victim blaming and chewing over stuff with little substance so I wanted to make a separate one where we can follow the rest of the trial and outcome with our comments and observations(without constantly arguing about feminist basics).

My last thought was that AH witnesses have been consistent so far and have been wondering if they pulled away from her because they didn't want the drama surrounding it(instead of actually finding her guilty, like Depp fans are suggesting).

I'm following it over Sky over ones with commentary(every day around 1-2 afternoon UK time, 9 in the morning US time I believe..trial ends next week, think someone said 27th)

All observations welcome. What stood out to you so far?

[minutesturntohours]

@Miscfeminista

"That is absolutely ridiculous.

So in your world, only men can be abusers, and if the woman is, its whataboutery. Wow."

Whatever misrepresentation of what I said you want to repeat, if it makes you happy

Well, given that you dismissed an abused man as whataboutery I'm not really sure you've got anything relevant to say

[minutesturntohours]

Worth a watch

[Birdie746]

Amber is a woke handmaiden. I wonder about Elon. He's supposed to be anti-woke but had a LTR and a kid with Grimes (woke) and got together with Ambuser and her twatty hipster woke squatter friends. 🧐🤔

[mummyrocks1]

@Miscfeminista

Oh I can imagine women defending their abusers, it happens all the time. We have some general examples of the mental gymnastics on this thread as well. And for the sake of lurkers that I once was: there is no such thing as mutual abuse. Abuse is about dominating your partner, overpowering them and being the one who keeps your partner in fear. Abuser is the one who you know that, bottom line, could take your life(even if it’s physical altercation that the victim started, abusers rarely if ever kill in self defence because they are stronger and can use their physical strength either way-the life of the victim is not important to them so they are easily reckless in their actions). Abusers are the ones who always start the relationship with very little space to give or change, even if they seem lovning and whatnot-abuser wants to control the whole relationship. Amber was the one trying to help him with addiction-he lashes out, she wants to do whatever movie roles she wants-he starts sabotaging, having jealousy fits, keeps humiliating her. These behaviours accumulated over time, are you all fucking serious saying that you wouldn’t start defending yourself like she did at one point and tell this guy to go fuck himself at the very least? I would do a lot worse to him as I have become”unhinged”with my abuser and then he did what I would never do just to get back at someone-he risked not only lives of those close to him but of many more people around. That is something abusers do-they are willing to go all the way in order to try to control you, even if takes killing you and harming others.

Those who assume she is an abuser have no valid points as to how she started the abuse, why or what would she get out of it and most importantly 0 evidence that she could overpower him in any way. The reason you hear her”sounding awful”in the tapes is because that’s the only thing she can do to respond to whatever humiliating shit he done to her in bed or otherwise when she couldn’t resist. It’s sickening how far people would go to blame women under every cost. It’s a disgrace.

I cannot agree that there is no thing as mutual abuse. I 100% think there was mutual abuse in this relationship. There is so much reference to it, it's out of their own mouths in the audiotape. There is evidence of both of them being abused. I personally think that the security and dr K and the nurse are not disclosing all that they saw or heard.

If one needs to control the other Witt abuse this control can change. It doesn't always need to be the same person in control on the situation. jD certainly had the physical advantage but AH runs rings around him is her verbal skills and I guess you could say she had power in this sense. My conclusions from the tapes are she was a me up manipulate him very easily verbally.
Power can fluctuate especially if you find yourself in a constant power struggle like they seemed to be.

Someone said what was her motivation for abuse- I personally think it was him splitting. She very much references this in so many of the tapes. It's like the psychologist said, she had attachment issues and would rather fight to keep in stay then let him go. This escalated the situation.

Her other motive- she says something, he defends himself back and she looses it big time very quickly and begins throwing things.

[minutesturntohours]

@AdamRyan you seem quite switched on. Do you genuinely believe JD is the abuser and she is an innocent victim?

[WeeBisom]

I just watched the video of Heard being cross-examined. The cross was interesting...the lawyer lost control at a few points, and asked Heard to comment on what other people said/saw. Heard isn't in a position to answer those kinds of questions.

It also super bugs me that American courts do this 'objection' thing. For goodness sake, if you lose control of a witness and they keep speaking either let them finish (and chide yourself for letting them talk too much) or quickly cut them off. Don't go bleating to the judge!

Heard was cool as a cucumber. Completely unrattled. If I was cross examining her I would be mad.

[Miscfeminista]

“ludicrously simplistic analysis of sexual politics”

Since you never actually made an attempt in any of your posts to analyse…well anything, it must look”ludicrously simplistic”indeed yet I didn’t go for low blows and comment on your intelligence.

The reason I keep repeating myself is only because people keep repeating same arguments. I’m terribly sorry it offends you that I can’t come up with more creative ways to respond to people who keep writing same arguments over and over and don’t budge an inch(like in your last response where you don’t give me anything to reply to since you just negate what I say without offering alternative)but well here we are.

And indeed, root of this case is misogyny(reason why I posted in on feminist sub)

[KimikosNightmare]

@WeeBisom

I just watched the video of Heard being cross-examined. The cross was interesting...the lawyer lost control at a few points, and asked Heard to comment on what other people said/saw. Heard isn't in a position to answer those kinds of questions.

It also super bugs me that American courts do this 'objection' thing. For goodness sake, if you lose control of a witness and they keep speaking either let them finish (and chide yourself for letting them talk too much) or quickly cut them off. Don't go bleating to the judge!

Heard was cool as a cucumber. Completely unrattled. If I was cross examining her I would be mad.

Really ? Unrattled?

I thought Heard came across as badly there as she did when she was trying to convince the court that Heard's off her face on drugs recollection of what happened when Depp's driver had to collect her from Coachella was more reliable than the driver's recollection.

[Miscfeminista]

I thought AH handled cross well too, better than JD from what I could tell.

Also as I’m watching”The staircase”docu on Netflix I realise I had no idea how much prep goes into them doing this whole show when they enter the court room. The coach or some sort of advisor that looks like acting coach that instructs witnesses on being on stand, rehearsals, mock jury stuff, endless what if’s behind the scenes, investigating for the case…it’s A LOT. To us who don’t know much it looks like ok they went through what they gonna say a bit with their lawyers and they just showed up, lawyers did the rest in office. It’s very coordinated and reminds me a bit of theatre play

[Miscfeminista]

Interesting how in”The Staircase”the guy was advised not to look at the jury because it may look like he’s”soliciting them”(if I remember right)and that he needs to let them look at him instead. I guess that was for when he’s not testifying but sitting next to his lawyers. I remember both JD and AH looking a bit shyly to the jury, maybe they got same advice tho I noticed AH definitely looking more

[Miscfeminista]

(I mean when AH and JD were sitting next to lawyers too, maybe more so when the lawyers were making closing statements or whatever it’s called)

[WeeBisom]

Yes, watching that video Amber came across as an unrattled witness. And she was getting a very hard time in cross examination, it was relentless. The laywer (who was very good) was trying to get to her. I thought she handled it well. She appeared calm and decisive. Amber came across as in control of the situation - the lawyer was getting annoyed at her speaking more than she wanted. For an example of a rattled witness, see Rebecca Vardy in Wagatha Christie: constantly crying and needing breaks under cross. Any similar videos of Depp's performance?

[Miscfeminista]

“In reality the most violent people are usually the ones with the least amount of power and social influence”

Again-they are not attacking wealthier and stronger people in majority that’s for sure. I don’t know what stats you are reffering to either

“and although women are weaker than men that doesn't automatically mean they aren't violent or not the instigators of violence in the home.”

Women being the abuser are minority. In most cases women react to the violence which people like you deny and call mutual abuse, until someone who dislikes the woman and her actions more decides she was”worse”and the abuser. Women mostly kill partners in self defence and even when they don’t, it’s hardly clear cut as reversing the roles

“Even if it was the case that the majority of domestic violence was aimed at women by men that doesn't mean that you can assume that in every single case and dismiss all evidence to the contrary.”

It is the case, which also determines likelihood of this case being one of the majority. And as I said: I have watched the whole thing and weighed their actions along with their power both and personal and societal scale. As you kindly noticed I had to repeat myself plenty so I won’t again, I wrote everything couple of pages back.

You seem hellbent on trying to prove that this wasn’t like in majority of cases where man was the abuser but you never explain how can almost 20kilo lighter and weaker person overpower someone who also has his even stronger bodyguards at hand that are going to protect him no matter what he does(along his other employees), as well as possibly attacking her?
And again if you don’t adress my argument of power hierarchy, I can’t offer you anything you haven’t heard already since you stop with offering alternative at point 1 or 2.

Also I haven’t really seen a lot of name calling from my side, I called out writing clearly misogynistic stuff and what seemed like trolling to me. I don’t mind disagreeing and I do so by giving my POV, which apparantely makes me”fundamentalist, dogmatic, crude, not very intelligent”and whatnot

[AdamRyan]

@minutesturntohours

@AdamRyan you seem quite switched on. Do you genuinely believe JD is the abuser and she is an innocent victim?

No. I don't know if Amber is also abusive because this trial has been about Depp. I can believe she might be but I can also believe her behaviours have been caused by being a victim of abuse.

I believe he is abusive and so should lose this case.

[AdamRyan]

Just ignore it Macfeminista. It's hard to explain power dynamics to people who fundamentally believe there is a "natural" hierarchy and people get what they deserve (good or bad)

[Miscfeminista]

@AdamRyan not sure what else I could reply anyway

Here’s continuing thread so it’s easier to go back and follow:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4560089-amber-heardjohnny-depp-verdict

[paperflowers55]

I think people misunderstand that Metoo wasn't about believing every woman without wanting proof. It was about giving them a voice to be open about their experiences. Metoo also encouraged Terry crews to come forward about his own SA experience. Men shouldn't see it as a threat.
I've seen most of the trial, I find she has a very expressive face and so she comes off as dramatic, but not sure who can talk about their traumatic ex relationship with a straight face on in real life ?
I think it's telling that he is not in UK on stage having a blast whilst Amber has been doxxed by Daily Mirror about her address being revealed. Imagine having people at your gates because someone posted this online and you know they want to intimidate and harm you. There is no other man in history I know of accused of dv that has had this type of behavior happen ? Let me know if you can think of an example.
Let's say for the sake of argument she had lied, I believe the public trial has been humiliating and punishment enough. And the cruel memes. She hasn't murdered anyone and people need to show some humanity. This isn't Black Mirror, it's real life.

[paperflowers55]

sorry I meant to say he is in the UK right now.
His lawyer Camille claimed his life was ruined and I don't see it. he lost jobs due to being unprofessional on set and suing the Sun

[SweetMystery]

He is abusive and she is abusive.
There is no doubt they abuse each other - but in different ways.
In no way is this about one person OR the other.

He admits ‘smashing’ things up, he’s constantly talking about ‘bad days’, he says he’s ‘not the only one’ who ‘smashes’ doors, ‘destroys’ rooms etc… He talks as if this is just a person having a bad day.

He’s an arsehole, a drunk and a drug addict.

An alcoholic or drug addict does not make sense when they are drunk/high. I have seen too many people in my life in this state.
They admit absolutely NOTHING about their toxic behaviour either before or after the event. They deny what they say and do.

He says it’s her PERCEPTION that he behaves badly generally and towards her when high or drunk. Gaslighting at it’s finest.

She is awful in her own way.

[AdamRyan]

I don't have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to 'natural hierarchy' and only a fool or someone who had spent their entire life in a cave would believe people get what they deserve in life.

I believe power dynamics exist and are why certain groups of people are oppressed e.g. men are more powerful than women; white people are more powerful than black people; upper-class people are more powerful than working class people. By oppression, I mean the more powerful class exploit the less powerful class to their own benefit.

Extreme examples would be Taliban enforcing women to stay at home unless in the presence of a male guardian and not be educated. Men therefore control the money and the work; women are dependent on men to survive.

Or the slave trade - white people "owned" black people and exploited them to make their own fortunes.

Even though much of that overt oppression is outlawed in the West, vestiges of the social structures that arose to support oppression of those groups remain so those groups remain disadvantaged.

An unwillingness to believe women who repost social and domestic abuse, or to claim there are circumstances that justify abuse is one of those vestiges.

From talking to people who aren't feminist, or actively anti-feminist, I know some people believe that we have moved past structural disadvantages to some classes of people. We are a meritocracy and other things explain differences between groups. It's common for people who believe this to think women "choose" less well paid professions, for example. Or people on benefits "choose" not to work.

I am making an assumption that for those people, they think certain groups have less access to power and resources because they don't want it/can't be bothered to work for it etc and therefore deserve to be in a less powerful position (implying hierarchy)

I try not to argue too much because everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But its very far from my perspective on why society is so unequal.

Massive essay there