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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans girl in Heartstopper

102 replies

HelenaRavenclaw · 12/05/2022 05:33

Loving Heartstopper on Netflix, but the only thing that bothers me, as a gender-critical woman (adult human female), is the fact that the trans girl (male) Elle was allowed to switch from an all-boys school to an all-girls school. If I were a parent at an all-girls school, I would not be happy with this! Are most "girls" schools in these days really mixed sex? I remember hearing something about GDST having some common sense, but I don't know about others.

The person who plays the role of Elle is also a (male) trans girl herself called Yasmin Finney. A look through her social media reveals loads of photos of her in a bra (with a very masculine body structure) and other revealing clothing, or bare chested with the nipples covered by hair, as though they are showing off her "femininity". Instinctively, these photos made me uncomfortable. Not sure if a female actress would pose in such ways on a regular basis. Can't put my finger on it, but these photos make me think of the sexualisation of women's (female) bodies even more and it just doesn't sit right.

OP posts:
TheAbbotOfUnreason · 17/05/2022 10:40

Whilst racial diversity is progress, why do we need a male playing a female role? Yes, the Doctor’s companions have always been a mix of sexes, but why do we need to bring gender woo into it all?

Oh wait, it’s Russell T Davies in charge isn’t it?

user1471504747 · 17/05/2022 10:46

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 17/05/2022 10:40

Whilst racial diversity is progress, why do we need a male playing a female role? Yes, the Doctor’s companions have always been a mix of sexes, but why do we need to bring gender woo into it all?

Oh wait, it’s Russell T Davies in charge isn’t it?

The article I read didn’t confirm she was a companion (although I’ve only read one article so happy to be corrected if it’s been confirmed elsewhere). Not sure having one character played by a trans actor means DW is going gender woo. I think it simply means a new(?) character is being played by a trans actor.

Yasmin did a great job for a first role in HeartStopper imo

MissusMaisel · 17/05/2022 10:51

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Bluepolkadots42 · 17/05/2022 10:59

Totally agree with you OP about the storyline of her moving to the girls' school. My sister works in an all girls school and we were just discussing this yesterdsy- she too wasn't comfortable with this aspect of storyline and her school definitely doesn't allow male bodied students until 6th form. It does have a number of trans boys. My sister felt concern that this storyline was trying to normalise male bodies in female only spaces and because of the young cast and target audience she had concerns that young trans girls IRL may really believe they could or were entitled to move to an all girls school as soon as they socially transitioned, which isn't the case.

Don't have any issue with Yasmine Finney posing however she wishes on her own socials. I think she's a very talented young actor.

KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 11:13

why do we need to bring gender woo into it all?

Is the mere presence of a trans actor bringing "gender woo" into doctor who? Do you think that trans actors shouldn't be allowed to act?

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 17/05/2022 11:20

KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 11:13

why do we need to bring gender woo into it all?

Is the mere presence of a trans actor bringing "gender woo" into doctor who? Do you think that trans actors shouldn't be allowed to act?

That rather depends on if they are playing a trans character or a female character, doesn’t it?

KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 13:39

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 17/05/2022 11:20

That rather depends on if they are playing a trans character or a female character, doesn’t it?

I imagine they'll be playing a trans character who's gender isn't central to the plot and who gets to exist as themselves.

Fridafever · 17/05/2022 14:02

See this is where the “there’s no transphobia on mumsnet” thing looks wrong.

I’m very GC in many ways and absolutely hardline on the rights to single spaces and sports. I’m absolutely clear Jas is not a woman.

What I don’t understand is why Jas being in doctor who is “gender woo”. What does that even mean?

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 17/05/2022 14:12

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KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 14:35

All the articles I've read have said Yasmin will play a companion like Rose rather than actually playing the character of Rose. Happy to be corrected if anyone has a link.

Cwenthryth · 17/05/2022 14:50

I’m a staunch GC feminist and also long time Whovian - I have no issues with a trans actor being cast in Who. I’ll reserve judgement for the writing and storylines given.

I am concerned that Yasmin is only 18 years old, that is so so young to have to maintain a public profile as a Who actor. I do consider that anyone so young identifying as trans is incredibly likely to be quite a vulnerable person. I question the wisdom of the casting in that respect. But the principle of a trans actor in Who - no issue at all.

It’ll be very interesting to see what 14 brings us! But we have the special with DT before that anyway 😁

user1471504747 · 17/05/2022 15:08

KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 14:35

All the articles I've read have said Yasmin will play a companion like Rose rather than actually playing the character of Rose. Happy to be corrected if anyone has a link.

They’re leaving it with an air of mystery (and as a long time who fan I’m interested to see where it goes while simultaneously hoping they don’t ruin it!) “Life on Doctor Who gets brighter and wilder, how can there be another Rose? You’ll find out in 2023”

I agree about her age, especially combined with the backlash and hate she’ll no doubt face. And on that note I don’t think there’s any need to comment on her weight, it’s completely irrelevant to the role and entirely her own personal business.

SerenaVanDerWoodsenHumphrey · 17/05/2022 15:24

Back to Heartstopper (sorry!) -

If you watched the show a little more carefully you'd see there are various references to things not always being smooth. For instance, the teacher who refused to call her Elle, the fact she became friends with Charlie while they were both hiding from homophobic and transphobic bullies in the art classroom the previous year, and Harry is specifically named as a transphobic bully.

Haven’t watched, but it sounds like this is all from Elle’s perspective coming in thinking "I want to go to the girls' school" and offering examples where the people opposed to Elle's way of thinking are kind of straw villains - everyone knows bullying is wrong, and it's silly to refuse to a call a pupil by a nickname. What people are wanting in addition is some critique/examination of the impact of the school effectively becoming mixed sex: how it's possible, the reasons behind the push for it, pros and cons, how the change impacts others, the reasons there might be resistance, how people with differing perspectives might come to understand each other. (E.g., does Elle's viewpoint change at all? Her friends' viewpoints?)

Different situation, but something a bit like this was done well in the US teen drama Switched at Birth. Daphne’s family moves next door to Bay’s in the first episode so family/home drama is combined, but there are parallel story lines for anything involving the girls’ schools, friendship groups, etc. This gets resolved by Bay becoming dissatisfied with her elitist, conservative private day school at the same time Daphne’s state-funded school for the deaf approves a pilot program for hearing students. Bay switches schools, and several of her friends follow the next semester/year.

Adding hearing students causes problems and conflict - some predictable, some not. While it’s just one aspect of the story - we've still got story lines for Toby, Kathryn, Regina, John, and Adriana going on in the same episodes - we get a lot of perspectives from deaf students initially closed to any suggestion of integration and deaf students welcoming it, and from hearing students upset at the pushback and hearing students sympathetic about impacts they didn't anticipate and even questioning whether they should be there. There’s also a good examination of the political economic context: less funding and support for special programs even when proved to be needed and effective, more for generic “education” for everybody.

In Switched, because we know the characters and are sympathetic to them, the whole range of opinion and perspective gets fairly considered. Even where things happen that we all know are negative and wrong - e.g., attacking individual students rather than focusing on the policy - we see WHY that can happen. In the case of Heartstopper (just for example) you could have a sympathetic character with a backstory of sexual assault and rape trauma syndrome, or a sympathetic Muslim character who decides to leave the school (or her parents pull her out) because it’s not single sex, or a sympathetic teacher reflecting on the history of same sex schools and what's lost if they go.

I agree, though, that Heartstopper may not be the right vehicle for this kind of treatment as (based on the comics) Elle is a minor character and the overall tone is upbeat and kind of fluffy/slice of life - more an LGBT+ Wonder Years than hard-hitting social commentary or problem-driven plotting. (Maybe a spin-off, or an opportunity for another aspiring show runner?)

Though I imagine you'll implode when, as happens in later webcomics, Elle starts going out with Tao, who is straight. Sexual orientation isn’t the same thing as being or not being trans. Trans people can date anyone, and anyone can date a trans person (usual caveats on mutual interest and consent apply).

Innocenta · 17/05/2022 15:42

It isn't 'gender woo' to cast Yasmin.

luciatrope · 17/05/2022 15:46

Mess.

Innocenta · 17/05/2022 15:46

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen Natalia Dyer? Lily Collins? Anya Taylor-Joy?

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 18/05/2022 11:21

Fridafever · 17/05/2022 14:02

See this is where the “there’s no transphobia on mumsnet” thing looks wrong.

I’m very GC in many ways and absolutely hardline on the rights to single spaces and sports. I’m absolutely clear Jas is not a woman.

What I don’t understand is why Jas being in doctor who is “gender woo”. What does that even mean?

I agree with this. I have no issue whatsoever with a trans actor being cast in Dr Who, including if she has been cast as a (presumed or explicitly) natal woman. It's acting.

I also have no issue with trans characters appearing, as incidental trans characters, in YA fiction or drama. That must be powerful for young trans people, and for their peers' acceptance of them. I came of age when lesbianism on TV (Brookside, Emmerdale) was portrayed as a defining source of misery and it was crap. I think it's important for YP (trans or otherwise) to have access to the debate about women's rights, and I also think it's important for them to see stuff like this which doesn't dwell on the issues. I still wouldn't want male children in girls' schools, but I have no difficulty overlooking it for a side character in a fictional story.

Going back to the It's A Sin chat from earlier in the thread, I disagree with the idea that that reunion of Richie and a school friend is a sort of wish fulfilment thing from RTD. I read it as deliberately uncomfortable viewing. It's not a happy moment, it's shot through with discomfort and embarrassingly awful young boundaries and inescapable shame. It's brittle. I think the fact that the straight bloke doesn't turn nasty is about not caricaturing all young straight men as uncomplicatedly homophobic. I don't find it an implausible or fantastical representation.

Loopytiles · 18/05/2022 14:27

I was confused by the references to Elle ‘having transitioned’ at the age of 13 or 14. Whether this was meant to refer to her decision to dress and ask people to refer to her ‘as a girl’, or medical treatment of some kind.

KylieKoKo · 18/05/2022 14:40

Loopytiles · 18/05/2022 14:27

I was confused by the references to Elle ‘having transitioned’ at the age of 13 or 14. Whether this was meant to refer to her decision to dress and ask people to refer to her ‘as a girl’, or medical treatment of some kind.

It wasn't explicitly stated but transition can mean social transition or medical transition. A social transition is what you describe in your post.

ImAvingOops · 18/05/2022 14:50

While it's nice for trans kids to see themselves represented and I'm sympathetic to the view that it would be unfair and hurtful to never see people like yourself in everyday life, it does normalise the transitioning of very young people. It's not quite the same as seeing for example, people who have disabilities as incidental characters in a YA drama, since transitioning has implications for groups of people other than those who identify as trans. It's not just about giving them the rights and recognition that should always have been theirs, as it would be re disability or race - to give what TRA demand means the removal of rights from other groups of people.
It normalises a medical process which has serious consequences and I don't feel this is entirely good in shows aimed at children.

Perroquet · 19/05/2022 04:17

KylieKoKo · 17/05/2022 14:35

All the articles I've read have said Yasmin will play a companion like Rose rather than actually playing the character of Rose. Happy to be corrected if anyone has a link.

Yasmin will not play Rose Tyler. She will play Rose Temple-Noble, who is the daughter of Donna Noble and Shaun Temple. It's clear from the URL here, even though it's not stated in the article itself: www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/heartstoppers-yasmin-finney-joins-60th-cast-as-rose-temple-noble-97288.htm

Her scenes will apparently air in 2023 to coincide with Doctor Who's 60th anniversary. I hope she will only feature in the anniversary special(s) and not as a regular companion throughout the new series. Because then she wouldn't have time to film Heartstopper season 2 (fingers crossed it will be renewed), and I'm much more invested in Heartstopper than Doctor Who at the moment!

CupidStunt22 · 19/05/2022 10:47

Though I imagine you'll implode when, as happens in later webcomics, Elle starts going out with Tao, who is straight. Sexual orientation isn’t the same thing as being or not being trans. Trans people can date anyone, and anyone can date a trans person (usual caveats on mutual interest and consent apply)

Misses the point. Anyone can date anyone, but if you're a man dating another man, you're not heterosexual, is the point.

Starlee · 26/05/2022 14:52

ImAvingOops · 12/05/2022 11:06

That's kind of the problem with it though - it's being aimed at teens and giving the impression that transitioning is easy.

I take it from that that you realise it's not easy. Don't you think that the teens (same as people of any age), that have actual lived experience of it don't understand the problems even more than you do?

Lovelyricepudding · 26/05/2022 15:08

Starlee · 26/05/2022 14:52

I take it from that that you realise it's not easy. Don't you think that the teens (same as people of any age), that have actual lived experience of it don't understand the problems even more than you do?

Do I think teens presenting as the opposite sex have more understanding of the day to day problems for themself that I do? Yes, obviously. Do I think they have more understanding of transitioning for life? No I don't because I have far more experience of life whereas they have no experience of adulthood. I have experienced long term relationships, infertility and then children, sexual pleasure, I have watched a close relative deteriorate with osteoporosis. I know what it is to mature, to change outlook on life and I have seen many people set off in one direction as teens then change that direction. I know what it means to be dependent on medication, to struggle to pay for a prescription. I know that you don't need to abide by sex stereotypes. I also know what it is to be a woman and no man can know that.

ImAvingOops · 26/05/2022 15:17

@Lovelyricepudding explained my pov really well. Just to add that many teens feel uncomfortable in their own skin and can think transitioning is the right choice for them but once they start down route, it's very hard to de transition, if it later becomes apparent that it wasn't the right way forward for them. There are consequences to medicating children and so it shouldn't be implied in kids tv shows that this is easy.