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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans girl in Heartstopper

102 replies

HelenaRavenclaw · 12/05/2022 05:33

Loving Heartstopper on Netflix, but the only thing that bothers me, as a gender-critical woman (adult human female), is the fact that the trans girl (male) Elle was allowed to switch from an all-boys school to an all-girls school. If I were a parent at an all-girls school, I would not be happy with this! Are most "girls" schools in these days really mixed sex? I remember hearing something about GDST having some common sense, but I don't know about others.

The person who plays the role of Elle is also a (male) trans girl herself called Yasmin Finney. A look through her social media reveals loads of photos of her in a bra (with a very masculine body structure) and other revealing clothing, or bare chested with the nipples covered by hair, as though they are showing off her "femininity". Instinctively, these photos made me uncomfortable. Not sure if a female actress would pose in such ways on a regular basis. Can't put my finger on it, but these photos make me think of the sexualisation of women's (female) bodies even more and it just doesn't sit right.

OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:01

I think there is an element of fantasy, absolutely.

But isn't there an element of fantasy in idealising single-sex education, too? I know plenty of women who were lesbians in single sex schools and who were very much perceived as threats to that sort of open, trusting, 'all girls together' culture you're describing.

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:06

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:01

I think there is an element of fantasy, absolutely.

But isn't there an element of fantasy in idealising single-sex education, too? I know plenty of women who were lesbians in single sex schools and who were very much perceived as threats to that sort of open, trusting, 'all girls together' culture you're describing.

No. At least not in my experience. There were lesbians at school who were treated the same as any other girl. Still friends with their old school friends now etc. This was 2000s though rather than the 80s

KylieKoKo · 12/05/2022 12:07

Definitely an element of fantasy - It's an adaptation of a graphic novel not a documentary.
But I don't think this is just an LGBT show thing. Most TV shows aren't particularly realistic

Innocenta · 12/05/2022 12:11

@Organictangerine In fairness, Richie's friend was clearly extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with the situation, and I don't think it was intended to be taken as in any way a full acceptance. More that he was okay with just the very first, initial coming out, and then got progressively more freaked out and grossed out by what Richie was saying, but was also so blindsided by what was happening that he wasn't sure how to react / almost had a bit of a 'freeze' response.

And then at the end of their scene, when Richie was distressed, I think we were meant to infer that the friend had some intuition, at least, that this was a valedictory meeting.

KylieKoKo · 12/05/2022 12:12

No. At least not in my experience. There were lesbians at school who were treated the same as any other girl

I can't comment on your experience but if you are not a lesbian then the fact that you didn't notice prejudice towards lesbians doesn't mean it wasn't there. Humans have an amazing ability to not see discrimination happening when it's not directed at them.

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:15

KylieKoKo · 12/05/2022 12:12

No. At least not in my experience. There were lesbians at school who were treated the same as any other girl

I can't comment on your experience but if you are not a lesbian then the fact that you didn't notice prejudice towards lesbians doesn't mean it wasn't there. Humans have an amazing ability to not see discrimination happening when it's not directed at them.

Of course not but you asked and I answered, with how I remember things. I suppose I could ask one lady who I see through mutual friends and ask how it really was for her.

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:15

Sorry it was Sarah who asked!

wonderstuff · 12/05/2022 12:17

Interesting thread, my dd loves the graphic novels, I didn’t know it was a TV thing too.

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:23

@Innocenta he was clearly uncomfortable but I just didn’t find his reaction believable. Nor do I believe he would’ve gazed emotionally at Richie as he did a ballet routine. I just felt like it was a bit of stretching on Russell T’s part - wanting to believe that somewhere deep down the straight boy they crushed on did feel the same way a little bit… if that makes sense.

KylieKoKo · 12/05/2022 12:27

I think you have to suspend your disbelief a bit to enjoy most TV shows to be honest!

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:31

I agree, I think for most shows you suspend your disbelief. The 'these LGBT shows are fantasy' feels a bit uncomfortably close to the whole 'pretended family relationship' trope to me.

FWIW my girls' school was quite good about lesbianism in many ways (we had teachers who discussed the subject, which they were entitled to do as a private school, but it was still quite brave). Even so, there was a prevalent belief that there would 'naturally' be girls who'd be uncomfortable around A Lesbian. I really don't think that's very uncommon.

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:31

What’s the pretended family relationship trope?

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:35

Also, with the episode in It's A Sin, I wonder whether these things feel unrealistic to us, not because they're fantasy, but because if they happened in real life they probably happened rather furtively, and people wouldn't have talked about it. So we're not accustomed to seeing them as 'real' events, even if they were? I'm not sure as not a gay man, but I would imagine all sorts of things did happen in a hidden way.

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:37

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 12:31

What’s the pretended family relationship trope?

Sorry - the phrase comes from Section 28 and refers to homosexuality as a 'pretended family relationship'. The trope is to assume that homosexuality is less real, or less genuine, than heterosexuality. So saying 'I think these LGBT shows are fantasy' is slightly playing into that (esp. since, as @KylieKoKo says, it's hardly unique to LGBT shows to include romanticised storylines).

Innocenta · 12/05/2022 12:37

@Organictangerine That's really interesting, because I didn't get any vibe of the friend having the faintest reciprocal interest in Richie, even in a 'wish fulfilment for RTD' kind of way. But I can also see that it absolutely could be that! Thanks for writing about your take on this - while we see it slightly differently, I feel like reading your thoughts has definitely enriched mine.

tinierclanger · 12/05/2022 12:39

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 11:35

Jesus, does everything have to be ruined?

This is a lovely show that finally centres a story about teenagers having a happy, loving, same-sex relationship. It is really important for current teenagers and also for a whole generation of people who grew up being given the message that their sexuality was disgusting and inappropriate. Do you realise how damaging that is? To go through your whole adolescence watching straight friends enjoying first romances and flirting and holding hands, while you were given to understand that being gay was something dirty and adults-only?

I get that people have all sorts of views about trans issues but it feels so plain nasty to bring them into this series.

100% agree

Innocenta · 12/05/2022 12:40

@SarahAndQuack Gay families are a really big interest of mine, actually. I'm a lesbian but I'm equally interested in gay men's creation of substitute family relationships and familial households in the pre equal marriage modern era - not even quite sure why, it just fascinates me. People seem so drawn to cast relationships into a familial mould no matter what else their demographic may be.

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:45

Innocenta · 12/05/2022 12:40

@SarahAndQuack Gay families are a really big interest of mine, actually. I'm a lesbian but I'm equally interested in gay men's creation of substitute family relationships and familial households in the pre equal marriage modern era - not even quite sure why, it just fascinates me. People seem so drawn to cast relationships into a familial mould no matter what else their demographic may be.

Mine too! I think it is so fascinating. I'm trying to write a book about it at the moment, don't know if I'll manage. I think it's fascinating how the 1950s created such a powerful ideal of the nuclear (straight) family, and whereas before that family structures had been much more varied and everyone understood that, after the 50s it became ingrained that you needed one mum and one dad to make a family, and you needed blood relationships. That and Section 28 had such a huge influence, it's terrifying.

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:45

Sorry, bold fail - no idea how I did that!

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:46

On the subject of family, I found it really interesting that (apart from one glimpse of Charlie's mum), we've seen asymmetric parental roles - we've mostly had Charlie and his dad and Nick and his mum. I know that in all fiction you tend to have absent parents because it makes life more interesting, but I was struck by it here because it makes me wonder how they plan to play out the whole-family dynamic.

OnlyYourSharpestMinds · 12/05/2022 12:55

From my experience as a parent, that is definitely unrealistic! DD goes to our local girls school and there is absolutely NO WAY that a trans girl would be admitted. The school demographic is about 60% girls from Indian/Pakistani families and 40% from black, white & mixed race backgrounds. Many of the parents are very religious and if a male pupil was admitted I am certain (from conversations I have had) that they would simply withdraw their daughters from the school - it is a very popular school because of its single sex provision, so I cannot ever imagine the school admitting a biological male. Plenty of trans boys there, however...obviously, as they are biologically female there is no issue.

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:58

I know it's not school, but I remember recently Murray Edwards at Cambridge explicitly stated it would admit trans women.

DistrictCommissioner · 12/05/2022 13:11

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:46

On the subject of family, I found it really interesting that (apart from one glimpse of Charlie's mum), we've seen asymmetric parental roles - we've mostly had Charlie and his dad and Nick and his mum. I know that in all fiction you tend to have absent parents because it makes life more interesting, but I was struck by it here because it makes me wonder how they plan to play out the whole-family dynamic.

It’s interesting as in the books there is more made of Charlie’s parents (both of them). And I think in series 2 which I’m sure will be made we will see more of Nick’s family relationships as per the books. (This series has basically been 1 and 2 of the books).

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 19:38

Innocenta · 12/05/2022 12:37

@Organictangerine That's really interesting, because I didn't get any vibe of the friend having the faintest reciprocal interest in Richie, even in a 'wish fulfilment for RTD' kind of way. But I can also see that it absolutely could be that! Thanks for writing about your take on this - while we see it slightly differently, I feel like reading your thoughts has definitely enriched mine.

Likewise!

Organictangerine · 12/05/2022 19:43

SarahAndQuack · 12/05/2022 12:35

Also, with the episode in It's A Sin, I wonder whether these things feel unrealistic to us, not because they're fantasy, but because if they happened in real life they probably happened rather furtively, and people wouldn't have talked about it. So we're not accustomed to seeing them as 'real' events, even if they were? I'm not sure as not a gay man, but I would imagine all sorts of things did happen in a hidden way.

Of course. I assume they happened far more than we could probably guess. I thought it’s a sin was a fantastic series and I loved Roscoe - his glamorous outfits yet confidence in himself as a gay man after leaving his toxic family.

I was however disappointed with Jill - a slightly bland female support human there to mother the boys. Disappointing as she was the only ‘real’ character in the show.