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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 4

1002 replies

ickky · 10/05/2022 17:50

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A
Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.
You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, barrister for SW
RW = Robin White assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Witness Statement of Allison Bailey: allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf

Kirrin Medcalf's complaint to GCC: allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/PH-Bundle-pp-331-2-Stonewall-Complaint.pdf

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
JulesRimetStillGleaming · 11/05/2022 16:52

Don't use quotes people - it isn't working and cutting messages off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/05/2022 16:52

An opportune intervention by Martin Reuby there, confirming that he heard it too.

There was a point when it was going to be completely ignored as if Allison had imagined it, so I'm glad he did.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 11/05/2022 16:52

I believe RMW that they didn't say "here we go". A professional barrister wouldn't put themselves in that position.

If it was RMW they must have thought themselves muted. Still very unprofessional though.

But is it possible for observers to unmute themselves, or can only the admin do that?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/05/2022 16:52

I could only via audio, so i missed the comment by Starmar.

What did it say?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/05/2022 16:53

IO and RW had a note taker earlier, who was in shot.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 11/05/2022 16:53

Martin Reuby is proving the undersung hero in all this. His cameos prove decisive. The actor playing him will probably get a best supporting actor BAFTA.

Time2Move · 11/05/2022 16:53

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/05/2022 15:23

Can anyone connect on their phone? I was able to do it during Maya's tribunal, but i just get a blank screen when i do it now.

I have connected on my phone no problem. Got chucked off occasionally but could instantly reconnect.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/05/2022 16:54

I could only via audio, so i missed the comment by Starmar. What did it say?

Something about RW that would get you deleted on here.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 11/05/2022 16:54

@Ameanstreakamilewide it would be breaking talk guidelines to post it. They misgendered and referred to them by correctly sexing and referencing their clothing. It was actually totally inappropriate.

RebelNotHon · 11/05/2022 16:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mollyollydolly · 11/05/2022 17:00

I think it was probably IO who said it, but I guess we'll never know. Robin said it wasn't them and I take their word for it.

theemperorhasnoclothes · 11/05/2022 17:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ: Quotes deleted post

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/05/2022 17:01

Okey dokey, Jules, thank you.

TheClitterati · 11/05/2022 17:02

NoImAVeronica · 11/05/2022 16:33

I thought it was IO. Only one person in that room stated categorically that they did not say it.

I think you might be onto something

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/05/2022 17:03

I thought it was too Molly.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/05/2022 17:04

And who was the chap who mentioned that he had been taking part in tribunals for 25 years...I didn't recognise his voice?

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 11/05/2022 17:05

but it's a bit surprising to go onto Twitter and see trans rights activists crowing about how terrible Allison's case is and how awful she is coming across.

It’s only surprising because you forgot to adjust for how stupid they are. Allison’s case is difficult to understand unless you either know how a barrister’s chambers works or have read her witness statement, which gives all the relevant context. TRAs are, broadly speaking, morons who don’t know things or read stuff.

So of course they think it looks bad for her. They see her repeatedly acknowledging turning down (small) cases and think AH has her bang to rights. I think a lot of them probably aren’t even capable of understanding this case, sadly. They aren’t in the habit of mentally connecting the dots. And even the ones who could understand it havd no motivation to try.

TheClitterati · 11/05/2022 17:05

once the court has muted you, you can't unmute yourself.
Only the various participants - AB, judge, tribunal members, barriasters etc can turn their sound on & off.
They have been doing it a lot as there are been lots of technical isses today, reverbaration & feedback etc, so various parties have been muting on & off all day.

PrelateChuckles · 11/05/2022 17:06

Bloody hell, can people stop repeating it? It's about a trans woman (afaict from the commentary) so of course it's offensive. Why do SO MANY people resort to flinging crap about people's looks?
There are huge issues at stake here, I don't want any part in deliberate rudeness.

Agree completely that it's not that difficult to shut down nonsense in chat and people unmuting themselves to make comments.

Mollyollydolly · 11/05/2022 17:07

Whoever made that comment in the chat is an idiot. At that point it provided a distraction away from the 'here we go' comment. We never pinned down who said it because of that. I wish people were more sensible, it's not a Facebook chat page ffs. I suspect the person who said it was then the one able to act all outraged at the comment. Bad strategy.

MaudeYoung · 11/05/2022 17:07

If it wasn't IO or RW that means there is, at least, one other person in their room who is off camera?

Mollyollydolly · 11/05/2022 17:08

And for what it's worth I wish they could restrict the chat to accredited people.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 11/05/2022 17:08

WeeBisom · 11/05/2022 16:48

I have just been following the updates on Mumsnet, but it's a bit surprising to go onto Twitter and see trans rights activists crowing about how terrible Allison's case is and how awful she is coming across. She doesn't seem to be doing that badly, and the cross examination with the Stonewall staff member was a dumpster fire.

I wouldn't worry about non-gc Twitter. From reading tweets about other stuff I know some details about, random people will produce the most outrageous lies/ assumptions/ biased views/ emotional blackmail/ bullying, etc. They can sound knowledgable & convincing for a second, until you compare what they say with facts & then... nah.

In this case, we'll just have to wait & see.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/05/2022 17:09

Poor EJ Goodman - she's probably never experienced this level of disrespect in her courtroom.

She'll be glad when it's all over.

Crafting1Queen · 11/05/2022 17:12

Whoever it was who came away with the "Oh hear we go" comment, and it was definetley someone from the legal side/actual Tribunal Participants, did so as an aside, not realising that their mic was not muted.

That's why Allison, quite rightly, and very very smartly, first asked the EJ to confirm all the observers were muted, so she could quite rightly ask which of her learned colleagues said it, and demand they apologise. It was shocking EJ didn't ask or probe further, but I think that's because it could possibly be a contempt of court. They would never have dared mutter that, if they were sitting in the courtroom.

It was very telling that although the person was quite happy to make derogatory remarks, whilst hiding behind their muted mic, they weren't so brave to stand behind their convictions and admit it was them (fucker). I can only hope that when they realised they had outed themselves as intolerant to say the least, and that not only AB, but everyone heard it (which is why I think observers started confirming they had all heard it too, cos EJ/AH et al were trying to gloss over it, as no-one fessed up) that they had such a quivery bum moment/their stomach dropped through their boots, and they experienced that horror cold sweat moment in case they were able to be identified, that they'll never do it again.

I am 99.9% sure it was said by someone in IO's office. Also because throughout this entire tribunal, IO's office mic is not muted when she is not actively participating, or between breaks, or when MW is shuffling papers/typing etc etc. I appreciate she'd have to remember to unmute, every time she wants to interject interrupt/harangue AB/BC when they are speaking and we have heard IO & RMW having little barely audible comments to each other when others are either giving evidence, or EJ is speaking etc, so I think they forget they've not muted themselves and did not think for a minute anyone else could hear.

I did have to laugh earlier this afternoon, when a third person randomly appeared sitting down in IO's room, sitting off to the side behnd her, and thought oh it's open season for a cast of thousands/possible support people to just appear in the proceedings now, then just as suddenly, they were no longer on the screen.

I am so glad though, this is all able to be seen by members of the public, and to see all the tactics and nonsense they are pulling, as hearing with our very own ears, how utterly crazy this ideology is, how unreasonable it all sounds (is) when said out loud, how captured supposedly learned professionals are & how much influence SW has managed to exert on businesses and public bodies, and that despite previous cases, like Maya's and updates from the likes of EHRC, proving that SW have lied misinterpreted the law, they are still doing it, even now, even in yesterday's evidence from KM, they are still misquoting Gender Identity instead of Gender Reassignment, misquoting the EA2010 & the lawful exceptions etc etc, they cannot hide it any more!!!

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