Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

But there are lots of people who do encourage and support it

And those people are complicit in all the harm that arises as a result of removing bounderies ans safguarding and gaslighting /confusing children about their bodies .

I'm not forcing anyone's compliance

So a child would not be punished for using the name they have always known them.as and using sex based language to describe said child?

We change the whole school system to suit people like yourself who don't believe in transgender, when just as many people are supportive of it

What I don't believe in is that anybody can change sex, I don't believe that the way someone dresses or the interests they have or in the case of children the toys they play with determine that they are or should be the opposite sex to the one they were born.

You are gaslighting and lying if you are insisting that a child is the opposite sex to the one they were born and should be treated as such and everyone has to validate that child's perception of themselves. How does this help? It doesn't. Why should the entirety of society be forced to partake in a lie?

We change the whole school system to suit people like yourself who don't believe in transgender, when just as many people are supportive of it

The whole school system has been changed in the last few years to accommodate the beliefs of children who think they are the opposite sex, so why couldn't it be changed back again?

So you say. I disagree, and I'm bored of the dramatic language.

Re your second part, i can only speak for my school, it would depend on the intent. Repeated, deliberate and done so in a bullying way - yes.

Accidental, confusion - no.

If you're going to accuse me of gaslighting, at least do your research.

Nobody has ever claimed that children can change sex. It's also about a lot more than toys and dresses fs.

Like I said earlier upthread. I'm not religious. I don;t believe in God. I regularly attend funerals and talk about the afterlife and use various sentiments about better places. I don;t believe in that.

Will I just start contradicting people? No. Because that would make me a pretty nasty human being.

Weirdly enough, because the people who actually know what they;re talking about don't want to.

Cant think why.

Its not accidental confusion though. Its gasmighting ro tell children that lila is now Colin and a boy. They aren't the one confused u and Colin are.

And recognising sex is not bullying. You are making children afraid to speak up about anything of Colin bullies them because you are making them.lie about the reality of what happened to them.

because the people who actually know what they;re talking about don't want to.

Who are the people who 'actually know what they're talking about'?

What qualifies someone to be a person who 'knows what they're talking about'?

Is it being a parent?
Is it being a teacher?
Is it being a scientist?
Is it being a philosopher?
Is it being a HCP?

Because every single one of those groups includes lots of people who know that human beings are dichotomously sexed mammals.

You're just wrong, Scully.

Well, it's certainly not us.

So it's too confusing fir children to understand a " university level" conversation. But children simultaneously aren't confused if they say they are a boy when they are female?

Which is it?

Nobody has ever claimed that children can change sex. It's also about a lot more than toys and dresses fs.

What is it about then?

Nobody has ever claimed that children can change sex. It's also about a lot more than toys and dresses fs.

Not according to Stonewall, Mermaids and several other organisations used and invited into schools to preach Gender Ideology.

Consoling people at a funeral is a world away from gaslighting and telling lies to children.

You've already asked me this, and I answered it.

In what way is it different?

Yes and your answers make no sense. Just like the rest of the ideology huh....

Its too nuanced fir kids ti understand but they simultaneously can understand more than us.

Its simultaneously none of anyones business but requires everyone's participation.

Its not forcing compliance but identifying sex would be seen as bullying .

Language is apparently dramatic but altering and trying to get people to doubt their own reality is the very definition of gaslighting. And that's what telling kids girls can be boys and boys can be girls is. Lying about their reality.

You are so busy trying to be seen to disagree you are debunking your own comments

Thank you Rufus I know.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Nobody has ever claimed that children can change sex. It's also about a lot more than toys and dresses fs.

You still haven't been willing or able to describe the characteristics that make someone a girl / woman or boy / man.

If you say someone born biologically female can identify as a male gendered person, what characteristics make that the case?

If you can't describe male gender vs female gender, you then surely can't explain how people can identify as one or the other?

Is this the reply you're referring to?
The nuances of gender is a bit much for a child. In the same way that we tell them granny has passed away, we don't describe her death in great detail. Or we tell them mummy's having a baby, we don't tell them that mum and dad had rampant sex

Or this one, after I asked you the same question?

My exact point was that posters suggesting what gender is in itself is a nuanced and complicated topic that really doesn't need to be gone into , and people like the OP who are faux confused about how to explain this to their small child when really it's none of their business dont need to go that in depth.

As I said, children understand far more than you give them credit for. X has changed his name to B and is identifying as a boy so we call them him and B is really quite enough.

But the children don't understand, do they? Aren't they going to have loads of questions about X who is now B? Like 'does B have a penis now?' and 'Could I wake up one morning and find I'm a girl instead of a boy?'

I actually agree with you that transgenderism is a complex issue which should be kept well away from children. Letting children 'identify' as the opposite sex at an age when they cannot possibly understand all the implications really shouldn't be happening.

Regarding indoctrination- in my DS college a teacher used materials for an English speaking and listening lesson, supposedly about LGBT, but mainly focussing on T.

Freddie McConnoll (transman who got pregnant was an example used to illustrate that men can get pregnant. Teacher told the young people questioning this that FM had been born in the wrong body and was always a man really.

The example give. of trans people in sport was a male motorsport driver, who has transitioned to female but still drives as male. This was used to illustrate trans people in sport, no mention of the unfairness of males in women's sport, of which there are numerous examples.

Any students that challenged this in the discussion were told they were wrong (by the teacher - he is the EDI champion, predictably enough), and they were told to write a speech, on focusing on the positives of being transgender.

Your "telling off" is laughable. Absolutely laughable. Thanks for the laugh, I wonder if you know what a fool youve made of yourself.
Why? Are you some kind of celebrity gender scholar? Or are you posting while drunk? Or both? You may have hinted at your realworld identity on other threads.

We change the whole school system to suit people like yourself who don't believe in transgender, when just as many people are supportive of it
What actual evidence do you have for this assertion? I have never been asked for my view by my child school. I have zero clue what any other parents think. There is a general fear of even discussing the subject.
I am dismayed to find out what has been going on in schools and particularly the conversations that Trans Rights Activists have been having with children aged 12 and younger.

It's a mental health problem the same as when people think they are Joan of Arc or Napoleon and the current trend is for many people to go along with it.

I don’t think gender ideology should be taught in schools. There will always be parents who want their child’s social transition to be supported by the school. Whether or not a school must do so, I believe needs to be established via legislation or through the courts. However, I do have in writing from the Scottish Giovernment that there is no legal obligation for schools to affirm any pupil as the opposite sex. The individual child’s well-being must be taken into consideration and no quick decisions should be made by the school, and certainly no decisions should be made without parental knowledge. When a school quickly decides to support a social transition and then discovers the parents don’t support it, the school has already conveyed the message to the child that it doesn’t believe the parents are supportive of the child. This then creates a division between the child and their parents and can undermine the child’s feeling of stability or safety within the family unit. No school should be doing this.

I think schools should move away from gender ideology as a teaching concept and towards gender distress/dysphoria in children/adolescents instead. They should make clear that for prepubescent children, the vast majority will resolve their inner sense of turmoil by puberty and that the diagram on page 57 of the interim Cass report should be used to show that there are various paths into GD and various outcomes, social transition just being one such outcome. If you compare the diagram (attached) to the training slide presented by LGBTYS to teachers (my screenshot is too big to attaché, but about 2/3 of the way down here: forwomen.scot/13/12/2020/george-watsons-college-staff-transgender-training/ ) which is the professional and responsible approach?

While I don’t believe schools are telling GNC children that they are trans, schools need to be particularly aware of the potential messages they are giving out, particularly to GNC children. I’ve spoken to far too many parents whose GNC have been repeatedly asked what their gender identity is or pressured to think they are trans just because of how they present themselves. This should not be happening and schools should be making this clear to their pupils. Unfortunately, the message from the ideology is that if you are GNC, you might be trans and some schools appear oblivious to the possibly unintended consequences of this message.

In the original LGBTYS guidance to schools, GNC children were included under their pretty little “trans umbrella” diagram which IMO was reckless and irresponsible. LGBTYS also push for GNC inclusion within the trans umbrella through events like the attached workshop in Dumfires for trans and GNC adolescents from 13-17. Why would GNC adolescents be invited to attend a workshop on medical paths? It’s all about the messages being given to our young people.

Reading this thread I notice something. It seems clear that stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou just mostly does not understand.

On other threads on this topic one comes across posters with no concern for truth, which makes discussion difficult; someone with difficulties understanding, likewise, makes matters difficult for those trying to explain, or arguing either for or against.

I know stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou will probably see this as simple abuse (it isn't; did you ever hear tell of Dunning-Kruger, I wonder?). But I am not aiming at her.

What is to be done, democratically, reasonably, morally, in cases where truth ceases to be important for certain people, or some participants cannot understand how matters stand on important issues for society? I have been wondering. Any ideas? I take it autocratic dictatorship is ruled out, along with simple rule of force, however benevolent in intent. What, then?

Thanks @rogdmum that's a great post.