Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

I have a great deal of sympathy for teachers (generally speaking, not the ones involved in our case!). LGBTYS and ScotGov don’t play fair when it comes to guidance and training to schools. They don’t give a balanced view and they present “the trans child” through the lens of gender ideology instead of “the gender distressed/dysphoric child” through the clinical lens. It isn’t fair on teachers who may not realise they are getting training that is intentionally only presenting one viewpoint.

Bit different snapping at someone for the numerous time of accusing you of dismissing trans teenager parents when you're mid very sensitive discussion with one, and two fuck offs in teh same post for a misunderstanding. thanks for the input though.

Not a fair comparison.

Are you unable to understand the chain of authority?

I decide nothing.

I react accordingly to the policy I am given.

Belief is all well and good but it doesnt pay the bills.

Not one of you would air these views in a school setting to pupils. Not one.

Are you incapable of responding civilly?

No, not really. You came in and attacked me, I thik I've been pretty fair.

😂

You're basically saying that if you aren't objective it's because you care too much yet you're not making any allowance for people you disagree with caring just as much about the topic but having a different POV.

absolutely

Think you're arguing at cross purposes. The original OP was about a family situation and a parent talking to her child.
Nobody (as far as I can see) is arguing that individual teachers start challenging this vulnerable group - collectively or individually. That's way outside a professional role. Nor should schools be socially affirming children in isolation. They need holistic support informed by safeguarding and child psychology / development enabled by informed discussions with parents. NOT the demands of adult lobby groups who frankly should be nowhere near schools.

I haven't got time right now to read all of today's posts, but @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou... quote

haven't dismissed someone who has shared their own experiences of people they look in the eyes, or said I don't believe their account.

You kept inferring to my posts last week that I don't work in education, and if I did, I shouldn't.

Who do you think you are?
And yes, I do see these with my own eyes, who have the trauma, and autism, and are in care, as part of my role, and I see their files and their history. And I sensitively raise evidence-based safeguarding issues with my 'superiors' around their being groomed into trans blah blah blah, and it's just batted away, fobbed off, or complained about (anonymously). Tbh many of my colleagues feel the same as me, but this is like an untouchable topic as far as leaders are concerned.

Hi @IamEarthymama - thank you! For a really good, informative but clear starting point on the history of sex/gender and sexuality, I’d really recommend Sexuality by Veronique Mottier in the Very Short Introductions series - she really knows her stuff but the book is still short and very readable. It focuses mainly on the ways that understandings of sex, gender and sexuality changed during the twentieth century and gives some suggestions for further reading.
On transgender, Helen Joyce’s book is worth looking at for some more ok the history of ideas of transgender ideology more specifically.

And I sensitively raise evidence-based safeguarding issues with my 'superiors' around their being groomed into trans blah blah blah, and it's just batted away, fobbed off, or complained about (anonymously). Tbh many of my colleagues feel the same as me, but this is like an untouchable topic as far as leaders are concerned.

@Charley50 thst must be soooo hard. Great that you are dealing with those situations professionally and ethically

I suspect that @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou is a very young, maybe newly-qualified teacher who naïve thinks s/he is forging new radical pupil-centred teaching practices. And possibly not a parent of teens …

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou I'm a bit confused about what you believe children understand about transgenderism. At 17.13 you said:

This faux inability to understand transgender as a concept just because you don't believe in it absolutely infuriates me.

Children understand far more than us

Then just a little bit later, at 17.40 you said:

The nuances of gender is a bit much for a child.

And then:

I think its more of a university level debate than a school.

So which is it? Do you believe that children understand more than adults about transgenderism, as in your earlier post, or do you believe that it is an adult topic which children are not equipped to understand, as you said less than half an hour later?

I suspect that everyone in this thread should read this.

Particularly pay attention to the part where a sexually abused female child, rescued from traffickers, was placed in the boys' unit of state care, because this child identified as a boy. Where this rape victim was then sexually abused AGAIN.

And all because of trans ideology.

After that, the child got a private room.

pitt.substack.com/p/saga-of-sage?r=n5nv9&s=w&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

In a democracy, the below is not good enough and has a whiff of 'I was following the orders':
'I decide nothing.

I react accordingly to the policy I am given.

Belief is all well and good but it doesnt pay the bills.

Not one of you would air these views in a school setting to pupils.'

As ever, on conformity with ideology and the price we pay: hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

From the text :'the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority'.

How is this any different?

It's the "I was only watching" argument. It's Pretty thin, when you really look at it.

Yes, LK1972, it's an abdication and hand-washing policy. We've heard variants many times before.

just following orders

One of the many points have found difficult is that we have encountered three members of staff who I think do understand the issues and did appear to initially listen to us. One called it a “minefield” and that from what I had sent him, he said he was leaning towards watchful waiting. At this point, the school’s own guidance “was being drafted” and I was hopeful that a more balanced approach would be adopted. Instead, I found via our SAR that the guidance has a paragraph at the end, presumably on the back of the type of information I had sent the school, as they had claimed to be unaware of these issues, which states:

”Further information
The linked pdf does not represent the views of or approach taken by [school] The article, on gender dysphoria serves to help those professionals who are supporting young people to understand that there may be parents/carers who feel that an ʻaffirmative approachʼ is unhelpful and that their child is gender dysphoric rather than trans”

The linked pdf is this one from TT:

www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Current-Evidence-in-the-Treatment-of-Gender-Dysphoric-Children-and-Young-People.pdf

What are they even saying in that paragraph? That they don’t believe gender dysphoria exists, that they just believe in the gendered soul or similar?

One of the other staff members spent a meeting telling us all about the increase in girls presenting with gender distress and how so many are autistic etc and we were so relieved that someone at the school finally seemed to really get it. The last one initially told me that the Year Head’s actions had been inappropriate and unprofessional and that the school should remain neutral.

Then these staff members very quickly shifted position and started following the school line that they support the child’s wishes and centre the views of the child, without any mention of the advice we had been given or acknowledging our safeguarding concerns, and we were lost. From that point, there was nothing we could say that would be listened to by anyone. I could have sympathy if they were told in no uncertain terms that they needed to follow the school line, but 2 of them went beyond that and told the most outrageous lies about my husband and myself during their interviews with the Head while our complaint was being investigated. Fortunately we have ample emails to refute the claims (and these are, in theory, being looked at in our appeal) but it was gutting to see that staff we had, for a short period trusted, lie this way.

The while thing is such a mess and LGBTYS have an awful lot to answer for.

rogdmum

Your story is a shocking one. Unfortunately, it is not unique except the way you and your husband was treated.

The fact is that schools ARE changing student records without parental awareness. I don't care how many times teachers come and tell us on these threads their schools are NOT. Some schools are doing this. Twice at record level at least at our school and that is just two forms that I know about it happening in. I suspect there are a lot parents at our school who have no idea that their child is even using a new name but has not changed the records.

Two of my teen's friends had their binders delivered to their friend's houses. Five out of the seven friends are now trans. This is happening, and to be told that we are 'faux caring' and that 'we don't even know any teens who are trans' is absolutely fucked.

I actually now do not know any friend in my area with a teen who does NOT know a teen or tween who identifies as trans. It is a very detached person who thinks that parents posting on a parenting site about trans issues who think that those parents are not directly impacted or know someone who is. It is simply a bizarre prejudice that they have picked up from somewhere to think that people posting here don't understand what is happening from a deep knowledge base.

And I do have a great deal of sympathy for teachers caught here which is why it is vital that the government issues clear guidance going forward.

rogdmum. It must have been such a difficult time for you all.

Yeah, I know I did because of the sentiments you were saying.

I don't think I'm anyone,

The post was specifically about whether i'd dismissed the parents of a trans teenager. I didn;t.

I can't imagine why your superiors complain about you speaking about them the way you do. I'm shocked.