Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

You said:

Of course you can be attracted to a gender! thoughts, feelings, the way they express themselves.

And I've asked for some examples of thoughts and feelings that are specific to women, because you said that thoughts and feelings can be the basis of attraction to a specific gender.

I'm not trying to trip you up, I'm trying to understand your point of view.

But why are you focusing on women?

My point is you can be attracted to a person, thoughts, feelings, not sexual anatomy.

For example - a friend of mine fell in love who was always straight, fell in love with a trans man. She's not (wasn't) a lesbian. She fell in love with his personality, how he presented himself. He still has a vagina. He hasn't transitioned. He has no intention to. (which despite MN stats is very common). But he absolutely is a man, to all intents and purposes.
But his sex is a woman.

Perhaps pan sexual people are 'gender attracted'? As a bisexual person I am attracted to both sexes, but differently to both!

Femininity (or being in touch with your feminine side, whatever you call it) is important to me in both males and females, but that certainly doesn't make me a lesbian.

These are nuanced issues, or 'grey', as you call them, and you seem a little confrontational at times. I think I can see where you're coming from, but laying into established/respected posters is not necessarily a way forward.

That is exactly what Pansexual is - but it allows for an acceptance that gender is a thing (which MN doesnt generally accept).

Thanks LK.

I'm sure I am. I don't care if they're established or respected. The poster in question read a full paragraph from me, quoted one sentence and reposted it in an effort to degrade me. I defended myself. that's not "laying in".

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I completely understand that on an individual basis. I'm bisexual and am attracted to people based on their individual personality, mannerisms and values etc.

But you said people can be 'same gender attracted' and that they are attracted to the 'thoughts and feelings' of a specific gender.

Which is an entirely different thing to saying people can be attracted to an individual's thoughts and feelings (or what they share of them as obviously we can't experience other people's internal thoughts and feelings).

But why are you focusing on women?

I can see why you asked this - I could have asked the same question about thoughts and feelings specific to men and to women so will do so here:

If people are same gender attracted and as you say earlier for you that means attracted to the specific thoughts and feelings of a particular gender, what are some examples of thoughts and feelings specific to women?

If people are same gender attracted and as you say earlier for you that means attracted to the specific thoughts and feelings of a particular gender, what are some examples of thoughts and feelings specific to men?

Again I can't stress enough how I'm asking these questions genuinely as nobody has ever answered them when I've asked.

I've used the word offensive twice. Both in relation to references to autism. I work in and around autism, so I'm maybe over sensitive in that regard

You said my post was offensive and I didn't even mention autism.

No I don't believe children can change into the opposite sex. But I don't believe they are motivated purely by autism, mental illness or the MN favourite, misogyny

Why are other pupils and teachers being forced to pretend they have somehow changed sex then?

There are many different and sometimes multiple motivations for children to say they are trans. These should all be thoroughly investigated. Having a diagnosis of dysphoria doesn't mean a child is trans, it means the child has dysphoria. Most of them grow out of it. 'Trans' isn't innate. Lying to children is wrong.

If a child takes comfort in adopting the sex role stereotypes of the opposite sex that is on them. Many girls do it, I did, as a way to hide themselves like a form of protection or self preservation. Pretending this has any relevance to their sexed body though is just harmful ideology.

And yes, reducing 'woman' to a specific set of sex role stereotypes, feelings or traits is misogynistic, young girls who don't 'fit' think they can't be one because they don't conform.

Schools should be teaching these girls that a woman is a female body with any personality, not a 'woman' personality in any sex body.

Do you think these children you are around are being damaged by the push of gender identity ideology? Do you think 10 years ago any of them would've been 'Trans'? Or do you think they are simply, and far more likely, looking for an outlet for whatever they are going through? Be that trauma, sexual abuse, bullying, being gay in a lesbophobia society, etc etc etc and yes, autism seems to be a large factor in children who say they trans.

No one has said 'autism causes trans', but it's clear that for many their autism and how they see the world and themselves, and what they are being told about gender ideology, can lead them to the thinking that 'trans' is the reason they don't conform.

If the disproportionate and ridiculous amount of money given to the likes of Stonewall to push this niche ideology onto children, was instead given to youth mental health support it would be money far better spent.

Lying and pretending to these children and the false promises that changing 'gender' will make the difficult mental stuff disappear is like sticking a plaster on a gaping wound.
All it does is mask the underlying reasons that aren't being dealt with.

The children are being used to push this idea that gender is innate for the benefit of adult males. These children are being used to push for the removal of female sex based rights and protections. They are collateral damage.

Lesbians and gays are same gender attracted

Same SEX attracted. Claiming homosexuality has any other meaning is homophobic.

But it's not about a "specific" gender, if you will.

To be honest, it wasnt until recent years that I got this and it was a family member who taught me.

I'm a straight woman, and I had a relative who (now sadly left us) would not define herself as bisexual, because she wasn't attracted to parts. She was attracted to people.

She fell in love with a man, and then a woman. She loved them for them. The way they treat people, the way they spoke, the way they made her feel.

As she once said, she didnt care what they had in their boxers.

I can't speak for men. Incidentally, the only transman I know (I've spoken upthread of pupils but I wouldnt use them) the only adult transman is with.......get this ........a straight cis girl. Pre-transition, he was with cis men. The girl in question has fallen in love with her boyfriend who has, and will always have, a vagina.

She loves him. His thoughts, his feelings, the way he treats people. Ultimately, she has to deal with the fact her boyfriend doesnt have a penis, but thats something theyre working on.

I know people dont get it. and I get that.

I will look back and find what I found offensive.

This is the thing. We (I work in a school) have never claimed we believed pupils changed sex. Ever. We are aware they havent medically transitioned, and thats not the issue here.I would honestly be interested to hear from someone who thinks you can change sex without medical, full, transition (which, btw, most people dont do).

"And yes, reducing 'woman' to a specific set of sex role stereotypes, feelings or traits is misogynistic, young girls who don't 'fit' think they can't be one because they don't conform." I'm sorry, this is just not true, at all.

I think the 10 years ago is a straw man argument. the generation of '55 onwards still struggle with being gay. Yet no one would now try and make up 20 reasons why someone might be gay. Why?

No, sorry, lots of people, online, have related it to autism.

Btw, its not homophobic to suggest gender. At all. NIce try though.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

But it's not about a "specific" gender, if you will.

But how can you describe someone as same gender attracted if you can't specify the characteristics shared by the same gender?

To be honest, it wasnt until recent years that I got this and it was a family member who taught me.

I'm a straight woman, and I had a relative who (now sadly left us) would not define herself as bisexual, because she wasn't attracted to parts. She was attracted to people.

She fell in love with a man, and then a woman. She loved them for them. The way they treat people, the way they spoke, the way they made her feel.

As she once said, she didnt care what they had in their boxers.

This is how I experience attraction and love too. Which is why I describe myself as bisexual because I'm attracted to both sexes. Of course I wouldn't tell your family member how to identify but she wouldn't, presumably, have described herself as same gender attracted or opposite gender attracted. She simply loves who she loves or is attracted to who she is attracted to - on an individual, case by case basis.

She loves him. His thoughts, his feelings, the way he treats people. Ultimately, she has to deal with the fact her boyfriend doesnt have a penis, but thats something theyre working on.

Again this is an individual example of someone who loves his thoughts, feelings, the way he treats people. Those things are about who he is individually as a person.

My query was about your statement that people are 'same gender attracted' rather than 'same sex attracted'.

You've now explained (I think?) that you didn't in fact mean same gender attracted. So it isn't clear why you used that phrase after all?

I do mean same gender attracted.

Sex is biological,

Yes, my family member went on gender and not sex.

Sex is ultimately what they have in their pants.

We have completely digressed though. We are now onto sexuality.

Meanwhile a 12 year old is having his life discussed by everyone and their auntie - because OP "sensed" her child "might" want to talk.

See how easy it is?

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I do mean same gender attracted

So what are some examples of gender characteristics of men and some examples of gender characters of women?

If you can't identify gender characteristics (the thoughts, feelings and self expression you described), it then follows that you can't describe people as same gender attracted.

You dont have to answer this

Are you bisexual because you find men and women sexually attractive?

Course i can.

In the same way im straight, but i dont fancy every man who has a penis.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

We have completely digressed though. We are now onto sexuality.

No, we're 'onto' discussing gender characteristics. If you can't describe any of these specific to a specific gender, but ask people to consider using same gender attracted, it's an example of how language is confusing people because the meaning of words is incredibly important.

What is gender? That's the important question I'm trying to get to the root of and understand your opinion on. For me gender is a concept based on stereotypes. Whereas sex is a tangible biological reality.

This is an important distinction because gender stereotypes are often limiting and harmful, encouraging people to feel they need to opt into a gender that is more traditionally / stereotypically aligned with their interests. Rather than feeling empowered to be their whole, wonderful, individual selves.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

You're either not understanding or being disingenuous because I've asked a question really clearly, a number of times, and you have been unable or unwilling to answer.

I am bisexual. I know the biological characteristics of both sexes and am attracted to people (on an individual basis) who happen to possess both sets of those characteristics.

Can you name some gender characteristics are specific to men? And some that are specific to women? If not, you cannot define gender...

Whereas I can define sex.

Btw, its not homophobic to suggest gender. At all. NIce try though

The definition of homosexuality is same sex attracted. Your belief in gender ideology doesn't change that.

Can you give an actual, concise definition of what a 'gender' is that doesn't involve stereotypes or internal feelings that only a small % of people claim to have?

Of course you can be attracted to a gender! thoughts, feelings, the way they express themselves

This used to simply be called someone's personality.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - what exactly are the male thoughts and feelings that your friend is attracted to in her partner? Does he think about football? Or gaming? Does he like superhero films? Is he more rational and logical than she is? Dislike shopping? Enjoy politics? What about being more dominant or commanding? Is he cleverer than her? Does he like to be right more than she does? Or talk over her? Or assume she will make the meals? Or get her to do his family Christmas cards? Does he have emotions that women don’t? What are they?

(During lots of historical periods it was certainly thought that men naturally had a greater range and depth of emotions than women; and that men even experienced romantic love with greater intensity than women, who were thought of as closer to animals and with less capacity for the finer emotions.)

OP to answer your question rather than indulging in the whataboutery ... I'd explain the difference between sex and gender ie sex is a biological reality but gender is a social construct.
With my DC, I explained how gender norms are different in other countries so it's obvious they are not innate or fixed but created by society/history/cultural context. I also discussed sexist stereotypes and how limiting they can be; and how if we challenge them that doesn't mean we're the opposite sex. As PPs said, you can also frame it as a belief system.
I also made the point to my DC that they shouldn't feel obliged to take a view on these issues in school. There is no need for them to put their head above the parapet if their friends are particularly embedded in and wedded to gender ideology. They can be kind towards friends who are struggling without taking on their belief system.

Being a straight woman doesn't mean that you fancy every man with a penis, it means you only fancy men (who have penises).

You still haven't described what common traits go with specific 'gender identities'. If someone has a 'woman gender' how does this differ from a 'man gender'? You've said that there are particular thoughts, feelings and self expression which correspond to different genders, which is required if people are going to be attracted to a particular gender. What are those characteristics?

To put it another way, what is the gender equivalent of a penis or a vagina? If someone is attracted only to people with a man gender (or only to those with a woman gender), what characteristics are essential in that person?

I think the answer is stereotypes, if I was a lesbian I would look for a woman who was 'butch' like a man, so one that was dominant, confident, bread-winner, protective, etc. So if I could get passed the lack of penis and presence of vagina in a spouse, I would have to at least have someone who took on the role of a man, which is... Still not actually the woman's gender identity but rather her personality based on gender stereotypes. This is a difficult question to think about!

Bringing the conversation back to the OP, I would caution about how to use the word "stereotype".
There are some gender characteristics which arise from social conventions, and others that are typical of males or females.
Hairstyles and clothes are gendered in many communities. Men tend to have bigger noses than women, so a big nose is widely regarded as masculine.
These aren't stereotypes. They are "conventions" and "characteristics". Can anyone think of better words?

Thankyou.
I know two girls who are non- binary and who also have anorexia.
I thought the rate of restricting anorexia has been constant throughout history and is linked to autusm in girls. Whereas other eating disorders fluctuate more.
But this is not my subject.

A physical attribute (eg size of nose) is not a gender characteristic or a stereotype. Any observed patterns in physiognomy are not really pertinent to a conversation with a 12 year old unless OP wants to get into a discussion about face recognition software and how it identifies sex at a rate of 99% accuracy. That seems an odd segue for a first chat with a 12-yr-old about trans issues.

@TeamSukhareva

Men tend to have bigger noses than women, so a big nose is widely regarded as masculine.

This would be a sex relative characteristic / marker, not a gender relative one.

I think that's the issue here - without resorting to stereotypes or social expectations, gender cannot be defined.

Which is why it's so important that sex is a protected characteristic and why it's vital the lines aren't blurred by simply replacing the word sex with gender when discussing identity and sexuality for example.