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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Student midwives at a Scottish university taught that men can give birth

154 replies

Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:07

Look at this absolute nonsense:

According to the workbook, students were advised: “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia.”
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-midwifery-students-taught-how-to-care-for-males-giving-birth/

In a teaching workbook for midwifery students.

I just can't deal with so much stupid.

OP posts:
Plieandchassus · 28/04/2022 17:37

This is heartbreaking. These young would-be midwives will hold the lives of women and infants in their hands in a few years’ time.

How can the lecturers on this course - who I presume are trained experienced midwives themselves - possibly condone this?

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 17:38

There’s an article just been published in The Times and Napier University which presumably is what this is from - unless there’s more?!?

MoltenLasagne · 28/04/2022 17:40

FFS, I opened this thread expecting it to be about transmen but no, it is even stupider than I assumed.

Honestly, any university prescribing textbooks saying men with a penis and prostate can give birth should lose their accreditation to teach midwifery, medicine, in fact anything grounded in human biology.

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 17:42

….Ooh and The Daily Mail has the story now

FrancescaContini · 28/04/2022 17:42

Plieandchassus · 28/04/2022 17:37

This is heartbreaking. These young would-be midwives will hold the lives of women and infants in their hands in a few years’ time.

How can the lecturers on this course - who I presume are trained experienced midwives themselves - possibly condone this?

How can anyone on this course read this bollocks with a straight face? It’s insulting. It’s a waste of time. I’d be pissed off as a student midwife to be presented with materials like this (which presumably I’d have to buy myself). I would feel as if nobody took the subject seriously, which would undermine my confidence and interest in studying it. 😡

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/04/2022 17:45

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 17:42

….Ooh and The Daily Mail has the story now

Decent enough write-up.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10762699/Midwives-taught-university-help-biological-men-penises-birth.html

Mandodari · 28/04/2022 17:47

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 17:38

There’s an article just been published in The Times and Napier University which presumably is what this is from - unless there’s more?!?

Daily mail running with the same story.
You would like to hope that it was sheer stupidity to put such a ridiculous thing into a manual training future HCPs rather than pandering to biological males who fantasise about giving birth.

nepeta · 28/04/2022 18:49

Mandodari · 28/04/2022 17:47

Daily mail running with the same story.
You would like to hope that it was sheer stupidity to put such a ridiculous thing into a manual training future HCPs rather than pandering to biological males who fantasise about giving birth.

Whatever it is, people should be fired for this. It's not acceptable for someone who is illiterate in human biology to write training manuals for midwifery students. It would not be acceptable anywhere else in the health care system and it must not be allowed to acceptable in obstetrics.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 28/04/2022 19:03

If a transwoman comes in and says he needs to push, I think any midwife with sense would point him at the men’s toilet.

FrancescaContini · 28/04/2022 21:55

TheCurrywurstPrion · 28/04/2022 19:03

If a transwoman comes in and says he needs to push, I think any midwife with sense would point him at the men’s toilet.

Or call for the on-call psych.

viques · 28/04/2022 22:01

MissPollysFitDolly · 28/04/2022 09:32

From the article:

"All references to the handling of a penis, prostate gland, and other male biology remained, but also added the suggestion a female to male transgender person could give birth through a surgically constructed ‘penis.’"

That's the 'corrected' workbook! A workbook for students in a UK university.

Wow. Now that would really hurt, imagine a breech presentation……..

FrancescaContini · 28/04/2022 22:06

viques · 28/04/2022 22:01

Wow. Now that would really hurt, imagine a breech presentation……..

I’m wondering if there are any other university-level textbooks out there that collude with the delusion?

SolasAnla · 28/04/2022 22:13

Anyone know if the qualifying exams are independently set and audited (eg via a midwife nursing association etc.) or are they set by each college and passing is dependant on students regurgitating the political viewpoint of the individual teaching staff?

mrshoho · 28/04/2022 22:14

Every day's a school day... So absurd!

nuttierthananutfactory · 28/04/2022 22:34

NC for this. The NMC are proudly part of Stonewall's Equality Index, despite being strongly lobbied against joining. See Twitter. And NMC decide the curriculum for training..

Sonaive10 · 29/04/2022 00:21

The Daily Telegraph has a critical article on this today as well quoting Debbie Hayton. The comments are all appalled.

Sonaive10 · 29/04/2022 00:24

Sonaive10 · 29/04/2022 00:21

The Daily Telegraph has a critical article on this today as well quoting Debbie Hayton. The comments are all appalled.

The text of the article: Midwifery students are being taught how to help men give birth in a textbook that experts have warned is rife with anatomical fiction.
Edinburgh Napier University told training midwives that they may be caring for a “birthing person” who has male genitalia and a prostate gland, in a bid to support transgender people.
A module guide on how to provide safe care in childbirth told students: “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia.
“You need to be familiar with the catheterisation procedure for both female and male anatomy. For this reason, where appropriate, this book refers to the birthing person.”
The guide, obtained by The Telegraph, explained the “male anatomy catheterisation” procedure during birth, commonly used during caesarean section to drain excess fluids, along with diagrams on “ensuring the scrotal area is covered”.
Midwifery students were advised that “male persons should be warned of discomfort as the deflated balloon passes through the prostate gland”, a part of anatomy that is only found in biological males.
This prompted a backlash from students at the university, one of only three Scottish institutions recognised by the Nursing and Midwifery Council for undergraduate midwifery courses, as it is impossible for men to get pregnant or give birth.
On Thursday night, experts criticised the guide as “inclusive to the point of nonsense” and warned that the simplification of procedures risked dangerous practices.
'Inclusive to the point of nonsense'
Prof Geraldine Walters, the executive director of professional practice at the Nursing and Midwifery Council, the regulator, told The Telegraph: “This workbook includes some clear inaccuracies in its current form. We’d expect the university to review and correct this.”
Kat Barber, the co-founder of the Sex Not Gender Nurses and Midwives group, added: “Women can’t have prostates, that's quite straight forward, so this policy reads to me as though it is inclusive to the point of nonsense."
The registered nurse told The Telegraph: “Someone who has written the policy has aimed to include differing genders which is fine, but in absence of real knowledge on how to care for those people which is dangerous.
“What's more concerning is that the students have had to take to journalism to ask questions about it, which tells me a lot about the state that our nursing and midwifery institutions are in, who should be able to ask questions.”
A student backlash when the guide was released late last month led to course leaders apologising for “wording being the wrong way round”. They said they were referring to a trans man who “has surgery to construct a penis, but still has a uterus and may conceive”.
However, The Telegraph understands that the wording of the guide has not been changed and the university on Thursday stood by it.
Elaine Miller, a fellow of the Chartered Society for Physiotherapy, raised concern about scientific accuracy even for female-to-male transitioners, given the lack of evidence on those who undergo a phalloplasty to create a penis and wish to give birth.
She told Reduxx, the feminist website which first reported the guide: “A [female] with a gender difference can become pregnant but will not have male genitalia.
“Most [females] who use testosterone, at the doses used for ‘transition,’ will develop vaginal atrophy. The fragile tissue of an atrophied vagina may be unable to stretch to accommodate a baby’s head,” warning of “new types of birth injury” which have not been studied.
'Language is the issue'
Female-to-male transgender people can still get pregnant if they have not had a hysterectomy or taken certain hormone-blocking drugs, such as Freddy McConnell, a trans man who gave birth but remained “mother” on the birth certificate after a High Court battle.
But this is not the case for trans women who are born male, as eggs must be made by biological females and scientists have not yet achieved a breakthrough through methods such as IVF.
A growing number of British universities are using terms such as “birthing people” on midwifery courses to be trans-inclusive.
And last year, Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust became the first in the country to formally implement a gender inclusive language policy for maternity services, including words such as "chestfeeding".
Debbie Hayton, a teacher who is a transgender woman, added: “Somebody needs to wake up - this is crazy. I think language is the issue - people who should know better are signing this off because they don’t want to upset people.”
Edinburgh Napier University said it was “committed to upholding the professional standards required of us” by the Nursing and Midwifery Council.
A spokesman added it “wish[es] to be inclusive of all people, including those who identify within the LGBTQ+ communities. The teaching materials will be updated as required.”

TurquoiseSwirl · 29/04/2022 00:40

eurochick · 28/04/2022 09:50

Giving birth through a penis sounds... messy.

And to get pregnant they would still need a vagina, and no surgeon is going to operate on a pregnant person to form a penis whilst pregnant!

PermanentTemporary · 29/04/2022 04:46

I'm getting tired of these meaningless statements. In what way Edinburgh Napier committed to upholding standards, if their procedures allowed this complete nonsense to reach the point of being given to students?

I do also wonder what the students tried before going to other organisations - did they raise this with the university, did they feel unable to do that, what? But still more concerned at this entire mess. Have the authors been identified (don't have to be named), materials rewritten, checked, exam questions reviewed? What if a good student fails because they haven't learned how to catheterise a male, having realised it's irrelevant to their job?

timeisnotaline · 29/04/2022 05:01

SpiderinaWingMirror · 28/04/2022 09:42

Well that's a bit mental. I have a friend who is a transman who gave birth. But clearly that was because they have female genitalia and a womb.
I despair.

I would bet my house and my children too that they didn’t give birth through their reconstructed penis!

waltzingparrot · 29/04/2022 05:17

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2022 12:14

There is enormous confusion about this. I'm not surprised that laypeople and non-scientists are ignorant of what bodily changes trans people have, but it's terrifying to think that the HCPs of the future are having nonsense like this taught to them at university level.

As far as I understand it, and I am definitely a layperson and non-scientist, this is the current position.

Anybody can call themselves trans, whether or not they are planning to have/have already had any medical treatment. There is no gatekeeping of any kind unless you want a gender recognition certificate.

Transwomen are male. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Electrolysis to get rid of facial and body hair.
(b) Facial feminisation surgery, i.e. cosmetic surgery to change the bone structure of the face.
(c) Shaving of Adam's Apple to make it less visible.
(d) Hormone treatment to suppress testosterone levels and massively boost levels of oestrogen and sometimes progesterone - this will reduce facial hair, increase breast tissue and reduce penis size, but won't grow a female reproductive system, nor will they start having a menstrual cycle. Results in mood changes.
(e) Sexual reassignment surgery - rare (fortunately, as it's major surgery, high risk of post-op infection, and gives poor results). This involves removing the testicles and operating on the penis to make it something like a clitoris. An artificial opening is created in the scrotum using colon tissue. This is called the neovagina and has to be kept open by dilating it daily, as otherwise the body would heal it up. It won't result in the transwoman having a womb or ovaries or being able to become pregnant or having a menstrual cycle.

Transmen are female. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Double mastectomy, euphemistically referred to as top surgery.
(b) Hormone treatment, i.e. medication to stop the body producing the normal amounts of progesterone and oestrogen, and to massively boost the amount of testosterone. Results in permanent deepening of the voice, growth of facial hair, mood changes. May lead to vaginal atrophy, urinary problems and increased risk of cancer and heart disease.
(c) Hysterectomy, possibly also with removal of the ovaries. Obviously results in loss of fertility and onset of menopause, which increases risk of heart disease and osteoporosis.
(d) Sexual reassignment surgery, euphemistically known as 'bottom surgery'. Very rare, fortunately, as this is major surgery and results are extremely poor. Involves taking tissue from another part of the body, typically the lower arm, which is left permanently disfigured, and making a crude facsimile of a penis out of it, incorporating the clitoris. It won't ejaculate. Ability to orgasm is likely to be lost.

There are many differences between the sexes which can't be changed. Height, shoulder breadth, hip width, gait, size of hands and feet relative to the rest of the body - all of these are clues to the sex of an adult which we register automatically, just like all other animals with two sexes. Also, the size and composition of muscles is different in each sex, and males have larger hearts and lungs in proportion to the rest of the body, so taken with their greater height they are always going to be stronger than females, even when testosterone levels are reduced.

If I've got this mostly right, maybe I could get a job producing the next workbook. Sounds like I couldn't do any worse.

Please tell me no NHS budget is used in the making of these 😡😭

Nillynally · 29/04/2022 05:29

drinkingwineoutofamug · 28/04/2022 10:42

Found this on Twitter made me laugh

That is simultaneously the grimmest and most hilarious thing I've ever seen

Swayingpalmtrees · 29/04/2022 06:36

Nope it is not a hoax sadly and reported widely inc Telegraph this morning.

I am wondering why this was not challenged at the time, why are people sitting there and listening to this BS? And not calling out the nonsense.

If a woman has had penis construction but has kept her womb etc then in theory a birth is possible, but the book was written as biological man claiming to be a woman, pregnant and giving birth (which is physically impossible) - and it was written in this way! It is the wrong way around.....and yet they have still refused to withdraw it. The issue is the way it is written. It is possible transmen can give birth, and advice on this might be helpful, but not some made up nonsense about transwomen actually giving birth!!

FannyCann · 29/04/2022 06:56

Even with regard to trans men it screams ignorance. As Elaine Miller commented:

"Elaine Miller, a fellow of the Chartered Society for Physiotherapy, raised concern about scientific accuracy even for female-to-male transitioners, given the lack of evidence on those who undergo a phalloplasty to create a penis and wish to give birth.
She told Reduxx, the feminist website which first reported the guide: “A [female] with a gender difference can become pregnant but will not have male genitalia.
Most [females] who use testosterone, at the doses used for ‘transition,’ will develop vaginal atrophy. The fragile tissue of an atrophied vagina may be unable to stretch to accommodate a baby’s head,” warning of “new types of birth injury” which have not been studied."

I think it is highly unlikely a woman who has had a phalloplasty will still have intact ovaries, uterus and vagina though I suppose it is possible since these experimental surgeries seem to come in a wide range of horrors.
The phalloplasty itself may or may not have involved rerouting the ureter so it is possible that in the event of a trans man requiring catheterisation that this might mean passing the catheter through the surgically constructed pretend penis. But there DEFINITELY won't be a prostate to pass along the way.

Whilst the now YouTube channel from (now banned) Exulansic The Phalloplasty files gave those of us who saw some of her clips an unwelcome education on the subject these horrors were largely in the USA. I have the impression it is much less common in the UK. Honestly the chances of a midwife having to catheterise a trans man with a phalloplasty are incredibly small. It really isn't something they need to learn.

And if the authors feel it does merit a teaching session they should bloody well do the research and make sure they know what the fuck they are talking about.

Seems like us lot on Mumsnet could write a better guide for learning.

What a disgrace.

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