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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Student midwives at a Scottish university taught that men can give birth

154 replies

Clymene · 28/04/2022 09:07

Look at this absolute nonsense:

According to the workbook, students were advised: “It is important to note that while most times the birthing person will have female genitalia, you may be caring for a pregnant or birthing person who is transitioning from male to female and may still have external male genitalia.”
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-midwifery-students-taught-how-to-care-for-males-giving-birth/

In a teaching workbook for midwifery students.

I just can't deal with so much stupid.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2022 12:14

There is enormous confusion about this. I'm not surprised that laypeople and non-scientists are ignorant of what bodily changes trans people have, but it's terrifying to think that the HCPs of the future are having nonsense like this taught to them at university level.

As far as I understand it, and I am definitely a layperson and non-scientist, this is the current position.

Anybody can call themselves trans, whether or not they are planning to have/have already had any medical treatment. There is no gatekeeping of any kind unless you want a gender recognition certificate.

Transwomen are male. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Electrolysis to get rid of facial and body hair.
(b) Facial feminisation surgery, i.e. cosmetic surgery to change the bone structure of the face.
(c) Shaving of Adam's Apple to make it less visible.
(d) Hormone treatment to suppress testosterone levels and massively boost levels of oestrogen and sometimes progesterone - this will reduce facial hair, increase breast tissue and reduce penis size, but won't grow a female reproductive system, nor will they start having a menstrual cycle. Results in mood changes.
(e) Sexual reassignment surgery - rare (fortunately, as it's major surgery, high risk of post-op infection, and gives poor results). This involves removing the testicles and operating on the penis to make it something like a clitoris. An artificial opening is created in the scrotum using colon tissue. This is called the neovagina and has to be kept open by dilating it daily, as otherwise the body would heal it up. It won't result in the transwoman having a womb or ovaries or being able to become pregnant or having a menstrual cycle.

Transmen are female. They may have any of the following, or none.
(a) Double mastectomy, euphemistically referred to as top surgery.
(b) Hormone treatment, i.e. medication to stop the body producing the normal amounts of progesterone and oestrogen, and to massively boost the amount of testosterone. Results in permanent deepening of the voice, growth of facial hair, mood changes. May lead to vaginal atrophy, urinary problems and increased risk of cancer and heart disease.
(c) Hysterectomy, possibly also with removal of the ovaries. Obviously results in loss of fertility and onset of menopause, which increases risk of heart disease and osteoporosis.
(d) Sexual reassignment surgery, euphemistically known as 'bottom surgery'. Very rare, fortunately, as this is major surgery and results are extremely poor. Involves taking tissue from another part of the body, typically the lower arm, which is left permanently disfigured, and making a crude facsimile of a penis out of it, incorporating the clitoris. It won't ejaculate. Ability to orgasm is likely to be lost.

There are many differences between the sexes which can't be changed. Height, shoulder breadth, hip width, gait, size of hands and feet relative to the rest of the body - all of these are clues to the sex of an adult which we register automatically, just like all other animals with two sexes. Also, the size and composition of muscles is different in each sex, and males have larger hearts and lungs in proportion to the rest of the body, so taken with their greater height they are always going to be stronger than females, even when testosterone levels are reduced.

If I've got this mostly right, maybe I could get a job producing the next workbook. Sounds like I couldn't do any worse.

RoseLunarPink · 28/04/2022 12:23

Maybe this confusion has come about because people are repeatedly told to be "inclusive" and not just talk about women because "men give birth too". People who give birth are not women but birthing parents, cervix havers etc.

The typical MNer knows this refers to trans men who are actually female. But because people generally understand what men and women are and see that in a traditional way, some people may well take "trans men" to mean men who are trans, i.e. TW. And because we are all being told people can change sex, they take that to mean TW actually can give birth. Even when they still have their penis.

Similar to the issues on menstruation products thread - when this bullshit "information" gets passed on and repeated by people who don't really understand it and know they are strictly NOT allowed to dare to even ask questions, there's a lot of potential for seriously getting the wrong end of the stick. No pun intended.

ThrowawayBerna · 28/04/2022 13:10

drinkingwineoutofamug · 28/04/2022 10:42

Found this on Twitter made me laugh

😂drinkingwineoutofamug

Thanks.
I have saved that off as 'Fluterus'.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 28/04/2022 13:28

I read that yesterday, so if I'm thinking right, they amended it to say female to male, but kept all references to penis, prostate gland etc? Is this where we are now? If you're a transman giving birth, student midwives having training to call your clearly female organs male ones? Is that what they mean? What, a midwife doing an examination has to say "I'm just going to do a check, you may feel a bit uncomfortable round your prostate gland"!! I'm really struggling to see how this makes any sense whatsoever. And giving birth through a surgically constructed penis? What a load of fucking tosh! And they're teaching this to midwives?? 😮

ThomasPenman · 28/04/2022 13:30

Viviennemary · 28/04/2022 09:21

I just looked up the link. I reckon it's a hoax.

Milli Hill has written about it. The whistleblowers contacted her in March.

millihill.substack.com/p/people-with-penises-dont-have-babies?utm_source=%2Fprofile%2F12356433-milli-hill&utm_medium=reader2&s=r

FannyCann · 28/04/2022 13:42

Looks like David Lammy wrote this one after he re-watched Jurassic Park.

Ah. That'll be the explanation. @tabbycatstripy has the answer. Grin

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/04/2022 15:55

I applaud Susan Bewley for her remarkable restraint in commenting on this.

MarshmallowSwede · 28/04/2022 16:23

Explain to me how if someone has a dick they are giving birth.

Is this why Scottish men don’t wear underwear underneath their kilt? In case a baby falls out of their balls?

If this is what they are teaching midwives in Scotland then I would hate to give birth their.. if they actually believe a penis can birth a baby then you’re not going to get the best care. This is insane.

Fairislefandango · 28/04/2022 16:32

Bwahahahahaa fuckinghahahahahaha!

I mean - argh. But - hahahahahaha!

Yep, that about sums it up for me!

Lynnthesearesexnotgenderpeople · 28/04/2022 17:00

This can't be right? Like, OK, the whole 'men can give birth too you know' is complete bollocks, but at least we know they are talking about females.

In what possible scenario would a midwife be catheterising a penis? There must be a mistake somewhere surely?

Unless this is all some kind of elaborate hoax coming from people who are trying to normalise the idea that 'men' (females) give birth, by putting out batshittery like this and making it look sane in comparison!

bellinisurge · 28/04/2022 17:03

Are they just being shit and imprecise when what they mean is so-called transmen who have a fake penis made out their arm skin.

Clymene · 28/04/2022 17:04

bellinisurge · 28/04/2022 17:03

Are they just being shit and imprecise when what they mean is so-called transmen who have a fake penis made out their arm skin.

Nope, because they talk about the prostate.

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 28/04/2022 17:05

It's the Mr Potato-Head school of Nursing again, isn't it?

bellinisurge · 28/04/2022 17:08

OP, oh ffs. They are just so fucking ridiculous. How are we supposed to "be kind" and "be respectful" about that level of stupid shit.

nepeta · 28/04/2022 17:11

I still can't believe that this would have been true. It must have been a hoax, or if it is not a hoax the level of understanding about biology is frighteningly low among those writing instruction for students in midwifery, and that option makes me extremely frightened, as the patients will be affected by all this.

PermanentTemporary · 28/04/2022 17:12

I was so sure it had to be a hoax. Surely. But... clearly the commenters asked about the provenance and were convinced enough to comment?

Blogblogblogblog · 28/04/2022 17:13

drinkingwineoutofamug that cartoon is the only correct response really, isn’t it?! Gave me a good laugh.

PonyPatter44 · 28/04/2022 17:18

bellinisurge · 28/04/2022 17:08

OP, oh ffs. They are just so fucking ridiculous. How are we supposed to "be kind" and "be respectful" about that level of stupid shit.

Completely agree. This is moronic, and any so-called educator who wrote or stood by this bollocks needs their head examining.

Cismyfatarse · 28/04/2022 17:20

Viviennemary · 28/04/2022 09:21

I just looked up the link. I reckon it's a hoax.

I know a bit about this. Not a hoax. Absolutely true.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 28/04/2022 17:26

FFS!

Hopefully someone sent a copy to the Baroness, let her go to town on it!

Lord Winston too.

Cismyfatarse · 28/04/2022 17:29

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 28/04/2022 17:26

FFS!

Hopefully someone sent a copy to the Baroness, let her go to town on it!

Lord Winston too.

Sadly it is from McWokeville so Nicola and Humza are to blame.

Bewaldeth · 28/04/2022 17:29

Ooo yes Samphire, that would be marvellous. Oh to be a fly on the wall in that office!

FrancescaContini · 28/04/2022 17:32

Men can’t give birth. Fact.

52andblue · 28/04/2022 17:33

I live in Scotland with my daughter (& also my son). I find this terrifying.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 28/04/2022 17:33

Ooh! Forgot it was Little Nicky! Send a copy to her and demand she explains how the fuck that works!!