Teachers must tell parents if their child comes out as transgender, says Nadhim Zahawi

[rogdmum]

I know we’re not allowed to post links to archive ph now, but there’s a good article in the Telegraph about Zahawi’s comments yesterday:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/teachers-must-tell-parents-child-comes-transgender-says-nadhim/

Key point is that guidelines are being drawn up (which was already known, but appeared to focus on toilets, sports etc and not social transition) and that:

”Nadim Zahawi, the Education Secretary, has said that schools have a “duty” to inform parents if their child identifies as transgender as he said his department was drawing up guidelines to help teachers.”

”He said: “Parents have to be front and centre of this. And that is my message to the front line is to say: you have to involve parents in this. You have a duty to safeguard those children and parents are very much part of that”.

About time.

Quite a few Secretaries of State and Ministers in Education, Health, Sports & Culture etc have been asleep at the wheel with this.

At last!
Let's hope the guidance appears quickly and is clear. In the school I work at the majority of staff have been told not to discuss trans issues with students unless we have been specifically trained. (The Pastoral staff, learning mentors and counsellors). Some staff have got in trouble for encouraging immediate social transition and some have got into trouble for having 'wrong think'. I have found it hard not to get drawn into the debate with students so find it easier to say 'I'm not allowed to comment' when a student asks about trans issues. A Science teacher was vilified by some students for staying that only biological women could give birth.
Clear, and sensible, guidance needed asap.

Just to confirm from others here, what do you see being the purpose and outcome of this?

I realise this seems like red meat thrown out to people with a particular persuasion on trans issues, but what realistically is it going to achieve? They're kids - rebellious and often nonsensical. The kids who don't care how their parents see them (or know that their parents will accept them as transgender) will still do what they're doing now (which comprises the majority of students, I imagine).

The only observable benefits (in some peoples' eyes) that I can see are:

1). Creating a gender surveillance state propped up by the education system, chiefly to quell the worries of a particular subset of parents, and

2). To instill a form of fear deterrence in trans people who know that they won't be accepted at home.

In other words, all this achieves is making trans people feel intruded upon and scared? I guess that does fit Zahawi's government's MO...

This news becomes particularly insidious if you consider children from abusive backgrounds, where his this policy would effectively void the safeguarding promises given to children who turn out to be trans. If this policy were enacted verbatim I'm every instance, trans children from abusive households won't even feel safe to be themselves at school because they know it's acting as an 'outing' device by the state.

This is brought to you by the same government intending on sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, where they'll be forced to claim asylum from Rwanda instead.

Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

@mnhq
Grief the changes in the site are making this hard - let's see if this posts

Distressed children can be best helped if their parents are involved
80% of children exploring gender identity are not trans but distressed in other ways
Most of them are girls

Wasn't it nazi germany that pitted child against parents ? And China?

“Gender surveillance state” lol

The hyperbole as always is telling

If a child wants to change their given name, use different facilities for changing/toilet/wear a binder their parents should be part of that conversation. If trans children feel that their parents won't support them then that needs to be part of the conversation too. It shouldn't mean the school secretly colludes with the child, some of Primary school age, to affirm without question.
The issue is whether or not Trans is still seen as Gender Dysphoria or not. Not long ago it was a mental health issue and needed the appropriate, if lacking support, for the child.
As the narrative is changing that trans kids just are, (as the comparisons to homosexuality suggest) then the issue becomes more difficult to navigate and more difficult to support.

Randomnameoriginal

I suggest you read some of the many threads about this on this board. Frankly your post seems rather ill informed.

I know we’re not allowed to post links to archive ph now, but there’s a good article in the Telegraph about Zahawi’s comments yesterday:

^www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/teachers-must-tell-parents-child-comes-transgender-says-nadhim/^

Nicely done. 😉

@chosenone

That doesn't negate the potential safeguarding breach in this for children from abusive homes. Getting parents involved when they are highly suspected of/known to be abusive is a hard thing to get right, and they likely still have access to their children even if they're undergoing intervention from the government for their behaviour.

Also, you (nor I) decide what is and isn't a psychiatric disorder, the American Psychiatric Association does because they're who produce and publish the DSM which the NHS uses. And it isn't undecided - the DSM removed trans people during its switch from DSM-IV to DSM-V under a weight of reasons (not just pressure from social movements).

Disorders are qualified based around a number of different factors, such as cultural acceptance, statistical infrequency and maladaptive nature. Typically, something needs to fulfill all three boxes in order to be quantifiable as a disorder. Trans people do not fit this as: A). Trans people are and have been culturally accepted within in some societies, and B). Being trans does not inherently mean you will suffer maladaptive behaviour like having Schizophrenia or any other neurological disorder does.

This is why it was removed - the science and ethical rubric just wasn't behind it being a disorder anymore. The same thing happened with homosexuality from the switch from DSM-III to DSM-IV, I believe (being gay used to be a diagnosable disorder).

What remains of it is gender dysphoria, which is not diagnosing being trans. Gender dysphoria is the DSM recognising that trans people can suffer immense stress from things relating to being trans (and it serves to help trans people access medical insurance in the US for gender affirming healthcare, since many insurance companies won't pay for things unless the individual has a medical diagnosis of at least something...)

Sadly, I think some interesting research (or, at least the prominence with which is what shown to people) was lost when the DSM removed being trans as a diagnosable condition. I think a fair amount of that research was dubious - the funding sources were questionable and likely may have had some biased origins, but some of the research was genuinely just for scientific objectivity and had some interesting results (none of which are now displayed to people as easily as they were when they were in the DSM). In a way, the DSM kind of acted as an official resource on up-to-date gender science, and nothing came to really take it's place after it went.

If a school has a concern that parents will be abusive towards a child who has declared a trans identity, normal safeguarding procedures should be followed.

The interim Cass Review report was very clear in its statement that social transition is not a neutral act and that we need better information about outcomes. As such, teachers are not competent to decide whether or not a social transition should be supported by school staff.

I’d suggest reading the interim Cass Review report as how anyone could read that and think that parents should be kept in the dark if their child is suffering from gender distress/dysphoria is beyond me.

Walking the line regarding safeguarding is immensly difficult I agree. Working with many parents is becoming more and more difficult and the explosion of trans children in our schools does need clear guidelines and quickly.

As you rightly the state, the lack of up to date medical research into Transgenderism and or Gender Dysphoria, particularly in children, is creating a minefield for schools to navigate on top of the explosion of mental health issues we already have.

Our concern is how best to support our ASD students who identify as Trans and the social contagion element of whole friendship groups identifying as Trans.

'Creating a gender surveillance state'.
'To instil a form of fear deterrence'

Hyperbole designed to stir up responses.

Parents are responsible for the well-being and health of their children. There is a discussion to be had about the whens and hows and equality with other issues children tell schools about but schools should not keep secrets about serious life-changing, potential safe-guarding issues.

@chosenone

A careful balance of science and ethics typically dictates our policy towards most things, and with trans people the evidence is currently in favour of just letting them do their thing.

The thing is, I haven't seen any reputable science that has disproven the existence of trans people as a delusion it as a form of mass psychogenic illness (hysteria - a fad). Recent studies have proven the brain to be more unisex than was once thought, but it has also identified neural structures that do differ based upon birth sex (such as the cortical stem, with which trans people have similar density and dimensions to their identified gender and not with their birth sex).

In other words, there is evidence showing that trans people might be the result of atypical neurological formation, but that doesn't equal disorder. Disorder (and the term disability) are both terms that don't necessarily just mean 'something atypical happened to me' - they're very politicised words with political implications to how they're used.

I also find it interesting how many people associate ASD and being trans. I'd be curious to see some actual research done on that, especially as our understanding of ASD has expanded within recent decades to the point of a hypothesised autism-schizophrenia spectrum. But, until we have research, I don't think it's correct to lump them together intrinsically.

Also, I guess my point is this: what's the worst that could possibly happen? You let some kids identify how they want to identify and... what? If it is a fad (which many people on here seem convinced of), then doesn't history show that it's pointless to try and fight it? Shouldn't you just let it run it's course?

"Also, I guess my point is this: what's the worst that could possibly happen? You let some kids identify how they want to identify and... what? If it is a fad (which many people on here seem convinced of), then doesn't history show that it's pointless to try and fight it? Shouldn't you just let it run it's course?"

This used to be called 'watching and waiting' which many here are supportive of. What there is less support for is:

• social transition in school without parents' knowledge
• affirmation only approach (including medication) any exploration of other contributory factors being labelled transphobic
• parents being threatened by social services for not affirming gender
• telling children they can change sex which is a lie

A careful balance of science and ethics typically dictates our policy towards most things, and with trans people the evidence is currently in favour of just letting them do their thing.

Also, I guess my point is this: what's the worst that could possibly happen? You let some kids identify how they want to identify and... what? If it is a fad (which many people on here seem convinced of), then doesn't history show that it's pointless to try and fight it? Shouldn't you just let it run it's course?

This worked when it was a goth, emo etc stage. They didn't impact on anyone else, and the worst that would happen years down the line would be some dodgy photos and some additional holes in questionable places (of the body)

Difference now is that the trans cohort are rarely doing and only doing their thing. That would be wearing what they wanted etc but it now includes a male gaining access to a women's prison for example.

The worst that could possibly happen? The physical damage to the body will speak for itself there.

“consider children from abusive backgrounds, where his this policy would effectively void the safeguarding promises given to children who turn out to be trans.”

A key part of safeguarding training is that children are not made promises of any kind, especially not promises to keep secrets. If there is any concerns that a child is at immediate risk of harm then appropriate action should be taken. Otherwise the approach is to discuss any concerns with families and work with them. This best practice should not be abandoned for any child. It could be a form of discrimination to say that we won’t apply this best practice to children who disclose a belief in gender identity.

Also, you (nor I) decide what is and isn't a psychiatric disorder, the American Psychiatric Association does because they're who produce and publish the DSM which the NHS uses.
The NHS uses the IDC-11 not the DSM.

Random

If people are correct in their claims, having gender dysphoria puts a child in a position of increased risk. It’s also a medical condition. Schools have no right to cut parents out of their child’s medical care by withholding information from them that the parent would use to keep the child safe.

What remains of it is gender dysphoria, which is not diagnosing being trans. Gender dysphoria is the DSM recognising that trans people can suffer immense stress from things relating to being trans (and it serves to help trans people access medical insurance in the US for gender affirming healthcare, since many insurance companies won't pay for things unless the individual has a medical diagnosis of at least something...)

Why do these people need 'gender affirming healthcare' if they don't have a medical condition? Medical treatment is normally used for people who have a medical condition. What is this healthcare for if not to treat a medical condition? Is it cosmetic? If so, why should insurance companies (or the NHS in the UK) be responsible for paying for it?

You seem to be saying that 'gender dysphoria' as a diagnosis is simply a mechanism for making someone other than the individual responsible for paying for cosmetic treatment. Is that right?

That doesn't negate the potential safeguarding breach in this for children from abusive homes.

@Randomnameoriginal Is 'coming out as trans' the only thing you want to keep from parents and away from the usual safeguarding concerns or are there other things teachers need to do and talk about with kids in private without the parents knowing?

Totally agree with keepitonthedownlow, bullet points below.

Watching and waiting was very much the policy in most schools. Some students referred to the school counsellors if they were agreeable (which is very tricky for counsellors at the moment). The TRA movement has made many students emboldened, which may be seen as a positive but also means that we have students demanding they have access to single sex spaces, demanding that all JKR books are removed from the library! becoming hysterical about 'dead naming'.

The politicization of the issue is becoming more apparent and is difficult to manage without clear guidelines from the DFE.

social transition in school without parents' knowledge

affirmation only approach (including medication) any exploration of other contributory factors being labelled transphobic

parents being threatened by social services for not affirming gender

telling children they can change sex which is a lie

‘That doesn't negate the potential safeguarding breach in this for children from abusive homes. Getting parents involved when they are highly suspected of/known to be abusive is a hard thing to get right, and they likely still have access to their children even if they're undergoing intervention from the government for their behaviour.’

I’m a teacher and I will say outright that it is not my place to define whether a child is from an abusive home. If I have reason to think so, it’s my place to report that concern to the authorities. Otherwise, I teach the kids and I inform the parents of issues that might have an impact on the wellbeing of their child.

Also, I guess my point is this: what's the worst that could possibly happen? You let some kids identify how they want to identify and... what? If it is a fad (which many people on here seem convinced of), then doesn't history show that it's pointless to try and fight it? Shouldn't you just let it run it's course?

What is the worst that could possibly happen?

Do you know any of the children and teenagers that have declared trans identities?

What is the worst that could possibly happen?

You mean, worse than affirming a child that they are now the opposite sex with a new name and pronouns on the school records and having it done without the parents knowing. So that added pressure of hiding a secret from parents builds layers of distrust, fear and keeps adding to the significant mental health issues these teens are experiencing.

You mean, some of these children and teens will never feel trapped in a situation of their own making and not feel they can change back because their school records have that new name and everybody is using the chosen pronouns?

You mean, like some of these children and teens feel such a lack of support from their parents because they are believing the 'your parents may hate you' narrative being pushed that they then turn to the internet to discuss with others, including those who do not have their best interest at heart. I know at least two of these instances just amongst my child's friends.

Yes, there are a small number of parents who will have issues with this. For the rest, the way this has been handled by schools, from seeing it happen to at least three families amongst my child's friends, is of significant detriment to the child's mental health. And then it causes significant issues in the family to discover it after the schools make these changes.

And for clarity, I am not saying being trans is a mental health issue. I am saying though out of the number of trans teens I know, all of them have significantly poor mental health. Keeping secrets from parents is certainly not helping them.

Good. Schools need to top being enabled to allow the kids to wind themselves up into a right state thinking their perfectly supportive caring parents are going to murder them in their sleep or change the locks while they are at school all so they can ne the nights in shining armour providing a " safe space"

There's a word for this whole isolating children from their friends and family and keeping secrets thing.

Any children in actual danger should be subject to the safguarding procedures already in place.

Other than that schools need to realise that agree or disagree parents have a right to
Raise their children as they see fit and do not have to believe in gender ideology. You can support a child without believehing in it or allowing them.tobself harm in the form of binders amd placing themselves in unsafe situations such talking to adults online .

Not all parents will be supportive of their distressed child.