Teachers must tell parents if their child comes out as transgender, says Nadhim Zahawi

[rogdmum]

I know we’re not allowed to post links to archive ph now, but there’s a good article in the Telegraph about Zahawi’s comments yesterday:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/20/teachers-must-tell-parents-child-comes-transgender-says-nadhim/

Key point is that guidelines are being drawn up (which was already known, but appeared to focus on toilets, sports etc and not social transition) and that:

”Nadim Zahawi, the Education Secretary, has said that schools have a “duty” to inform parents if their child identifies as transgender as he said his department was drawing up guidelines to help teachers.”

”He said: “Parents have to be front and centre of this. And that is my message to the front line is to say: you have to involve parents in this. You have a duty to safeguard those children and parents are very much part of that”.

Why do these people need 'gender affirming healthcare' if they don't have a medical condition?

I have never seen a satisfactory answer to this question at all.

It cannot be both ways. It cannot be something that requires surgery and hormonal treatments and not be 'a medical condition'.

@WhiteFire

I can see what you mean, but wouldn't the regrets of changes to the body be represented by detransition rates? I've also seen those programs with detransition-ers but, as it currently stands (and has stood for a long time), the UK's detransition rate is very low (anywhere from 0.5% to 5%).

Even if we were to assume the upper limit of 5%, that's still not that serious when you consider that:

1). The majority of medical detransitions in the UK (typically the stopping of HRT) aren't even about the individual realising they aren't trans. Amongst detransitions in the UK, most of the reasons given by people are that they haven't been accepted, have been physically or verbally attacked or threatened while transitioning, or haven't achieved as substantial a change as they feel comfortable with and would therefore like to return back to looking (at least) suitably like one sex instead of looking like androgynous/in the middle.

Also, if you go to trans forums, there isn't really any denialism that I've seen about the fact that people might not get what they want out of transitioning.

As for prison - I mean, they're prisons. I imagine everybody in them doesn't get amazing treatment.

I'm not trying to minimise any potential weirdness that could come from mixed sex prisons, but what are the big concerns? Sexual assault? Because I'm pretty sure that women sexually assault women in prison anyway (a lot more cis women than trans women), just like male-on-male sex abuse in prisons.

Idk, but I seem to recall seeing some official figures reported a while ago about mixed sex prison spaces (or trans-inclusive prison spaces, however you want to say it), which showed that sexual assault from trans women was lower than would realistically be expected for a prison setting. In fact, I think half of all incidents were done by the same person (who had been imprisoned for sexual assault on the first place). That doesn' sound like a bad decision because they were trans, that just sounds like bad judgement to keep them with other prisoners at all...

@WhiteFire

Forgot to add:

2). Amongst people who do realise that they're not actually trans/don't actually want a female body, I believe hormonal changes on HRT typically make them realise fairly quickly (before any permanent bodily changes have occurred).

I think male-to-female hormone therapy only has one irreversible effect (breast growth), which I don't think starts until a few months in.

Not all parents will be supportive of their distressed child.

And surely the approach is as it is now, that safeguarding takes over and decisions are made. If needed, social services and other support gets involved.

The blanket decision policies that have been allowed to be made in schools cannot be seen as being the correct path. The way this has been handled is wrong and is causing additional distress to those students and their families.

If a child is vulnerable to abuse, this needs to be identified.

And again, making changes to a child's school records and calling them opposite sex pronouns is NOT a neutral act. And sexual orientation should never been used to prop up these policies. Sexual orientation requires little other than acceptance by others (and by the individual), making record changes etc is not the same at all.

‘As for prison - I mean, they're prisons. I imagine everybody in them doesn't get amazing treatment.

I'm not trying to minimise any potential weirdness that could come from mixed sex prisons, but what are the big concerns? Sexual assault? Because I'm pretty sure that women sexually assault women in prison anyway (a lot more cis women than trans women), just like male-on-male sex abuse in prisons.’

We say no. We don’t agree that locking women up with men and accepting the risks of rape with a penis, pregnancy and STDs is an acceptable price to pay for the inclusion of transwomen prisoners. There are other - very obvious - solutions.

First of all I have no faith in the safeguarding following issues with my GC where the school basically colluded with his parents even after they admitted physical abuse.

Secondly from the title of this thread it doesn't say anything about changing school records or using opposite pronouns, maybe Zahawi says more but I'm reading this thread. The heading is Teachers must tell parents if their child comes out as transgender, says Nadhim Zahaw

In my opinion if little Johnny tells a teacher he thinks he's a girl the appropriate response would be on the lines of, "That's nice dear, now get on with your maths." Some kids will be doing it to get a reaction and not getting one is a good thing, some will seek further help from a more appropriate person than a teacher e.g. seeing a doctor or a counsellor.

Schools aren't prisons.

I can see what you mean, but wouldn't the regrets of changes to the body be represented by detransition rates? I've also seen those programs with detransition-ers but, as it currently stands (and has stood for a long time), the UK's detransition rate is very low (anywhere from 0.5% to 5%).

It is currently impossible to know the numbers of detransitioners in the UK. They have never been tracked .... they have not been given the medical support they need if you listen to the active detransitioners.

This paper might be interesting - small numbers but I will post another study that supports this from a European base in a moment.

mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/healthcare/healthcare-10-00121/article_deploy/healthcare-10-00121-v2.pdf?version=1641801084

Nine patients had stopped hormone therapy; one related to practice policy because they had not attended any GIC follow-up (the patient has restarted since the audit). Thus, eight patients had stopped hormones voluntarily (20% stopping rate; six trans men, two trans women). These patients had been on treatment for a mean of five years (range 17 months-10 years). Four transmen had comments in the records that related to a change in gender identity or detransitioning (4/41, 9.8%): “Would like to gradually detransition”; “No longer wish to live your life as a male”; “Has decided to detransition . . . . Feels comfortable having decided to dress and appear more feminine; “Feels it was a mistake, identifying as non-binary now”. None of these patients had undergone any gender related surgery. They had presented at a mean of 18 years of age, taken testosterone for a mean of 18 months, and currently presented as female (three) or non-binary (one). The other four patients who had stopped hormones continued to present as trans (two women, two men): one, who had experienced orchidectomy, had a record of regret (“No hormonal treatment currently, regrets gender reassignment”); one had a medical reason noted for stopping (“problems with PV bleeding despite androgen”); and two had no specific reason for stopping in their record, but it was documented that they had stopped.

9.8%

So, Random. What figure do you wish to see for parents concerns to be fully consider to accept 'regret' as a reason to not have schools make decisions that may mean children and teens are put into positions that they feel they cannot come from?

Secondly from the title of this thread it doesn't say anything about changing school records or using opposite pronouns

This is what schools are doing though. This is happening. It is happening in schools in my borough.

Schools need clear guidance on this. Anyone who has worked in schools can clearly see the issues with the current approach - students declaring trans identities and demanding other students and staff immediately fall over themselves to accommodate them in changing rooms of their choosing and keeping up with constantly changing pronouns etc. It's a way for some students to bully and control teachers and other kids. Acknowledging the child's distress, informing parents then simply carrying on with a watchful waiting approach seems most sensible. No social transition, no forcing others into affirming others internal identities and no mixed sex changing rooms and toilets.

ancientgran

I know, I was just responding about prisons.

Randomnameoriginal Just to confirm from others here, what do you see being the purpose and outcome of this?

Safeguarding to start with. Any teacher disappointed that they won't be allowed to say "just our secret" should be looked at closely.

What are the rules for a child being involved in bullying or an accident? Should that be "our little secret" too?

The whole "ah but the parents might be abusers" is a strange default position.
On that basis perhaps we can argue that teachers should hold their entire classes hostage and not let them go home to potential abuse?

Here is another study that if you look at the detransition rates. It supports the 9.8% figure I posted up thread.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/ 

Effects of Medical Interventions on Gender Dysphoria and Body Image: A Follow-Up Study

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

This study was done in 2017. So it will not have captured any of the surge of female adolescent transitioners that are now registered with gender clinics around UK, Europe and other countries.

I suspect that there will be much higher figures in the future.

As Dr Hilary Cass stated in her interim report, the impact of treatment plans on this cohort of females will not be able to be adequately assessed for five years or so (paraphrasing, but can always find the statement in the report if needed)

In my opinion if little Johnny tells a teacher he thinks he's a girl the appropriate response would be on the lines of, "That's nice dear, now get on with your maths." Some kids will be doing it to get a reaction and not getting one is a good thing, some will seek further help from a more appropriate person than a teacher e.g. seeing a doctor or a counsellor.

Agree. But unfortunately, this is not always happening. Certainly if you read teachers who post here, many are telling us that they have to use requested pronouns and names etc.

‘On that basis perhaps we can argue that teachers should hold their entire classes hostage and not let them go home to potential abuse?’

Precisely. I could say teachers were potential abusers and refuse to let my child go to homework club at lunchtime, ‘just in case’. But that would be ridiculous. Most adults are not abusers. We put rigorous safeguards in place when unrelated adults work with children. We react to problems in a responsible way. Hiding secrets from children’s parents isn’t that.

Added to which, the definition of ‘abuse’ activists are using in this context actually isn’t. Telling your child you love them and will support them, but nobody can change sex, isn’t abuse. It’s the responsible and loving thing to do.

@Whatwouldscullydo everything you’ve said!
parents can’t be painted as the enemy here.

I thought the thread was about what Zahawi said. I obviously have no idea about your borough.

I can see what you mean, but wouldn't the regrets of changes to the body be represented by detransition rates? I've also seen those programs with detransition-ers but, as it currently stands (and has stood for a long time), the UK's detransition rate is very low (anywhere from 0.5% to 5%).

There is a reason that some groups want to keep playing the 'it is tiny, tiny %' and what medical procedure has 100% satisfaction rate.

Except..... apparently, this is NOT a medical condition according to some.

Except ..... the true rate of detransition from this current affirming only practise will not be seen for years and therefore, how many more children and teens will have life shortening (look up the current concerns around early dementia for females who have their ovaries removed in their 20s, and then read how many females are reporting they have lost their ovaries due to side effects of hormone treatment), life limiting (I suggest you read some detransitioners accounts of the life long effects on their bodies for even a year or two on testosterone) will have been allowed to go through these treatments before 'enough evidence' will have been reported officially by groups who seem to have resisted collecting progress reports in the past (and ask why this was allowed to happen?).

Maybe it would be more useful for Zahawi to insist on it rather than "parents must be told."

Nadim Zahawi, the Education Secretary, has said that schools have a “duty” to inform parents if their child identifies as transgender as he said his department was drawing up guidelines to help teachers.

Not sure what part of my posts about schools in my borough doesn't fit with what Zahawi is referring to???

Could you please explain where I am misunderstanding that schools who ARE changing student records and using requested names and pronouns are not relevant to what he has said?

By abuse I am talking about parents who would be physically abusive to a child who says they are trans or a child who is terrified of parents finding out.

A similar but different issue happened when one of mine was at school. An incident happened (it was silly but teacher got angry and threatening police will be involved, all nonsense) and the boys were told their parents would be informed. A boy from a strict Muslim family was so terrified he ran away, he was about 14 or 15 and obviously put himself in danger living on the streets. He was found, the issue was sorted out and all was well but it could have ended tragically.

Can you guarantee that every parent will say they love and support them, do you think if a child tells a teacher they will be in danger if their parents find out they should be listened to?

Maybe we are talking about different age groups???

The students I refer to are secondary students as mentioned in the article as below ...

Appearing before the Education Select Committee in Parliament, Mr Zahawi was asked about a recent YouGov survey which found that nearly one in five secondary school teachers would not tell parents that their child had changed gender identity if the pupil had not already done so themselves.

with trans people the evidence is currently in favour of just letting them do their thing.

But it is not just a case of them doing their thing is it? They are forcing others to validate their thing, to give up spaces for their thing, to pander to their thing irrespective of the beliefs, thoughts, wishes, needs or wants of others. Their thing is totally selfish and considers no-one other than themselves.

Do your thing without impacting on others or forcing them to participate in your thing, fine, but that is not what is happening here.

Changing records or using pronouns isn't the same as telling parents, you could do all 3 or any one. If your borough changes names and pronouns does that mean they tell parents or not?

If your borough changes names and pronouns does that mean they tell parents or not?

They are not telling the parents. That is the entire point of my posting this below on page 1.

"worse than affirming a child that they are now the opposite sex with a new name and pronouns on the school records and having it done without the parents knowing. So that added pressure of hiding a secret from parents builds layers of distrust, fear and keeps adding to the significant mental health issues these teens are experiencing."