NCS will put my child into a "self-identified gendered accommodation"

[Unwantedgift]

Hi. First time posting here but I've got two children who have introduced me to the world of gender ideology. DD desisted, DS going through it right now. Wondering what I can say to the NCS safeguarding lead about the above.

Background is that DS is going this summer to a 2w course, the first of which is residential, and I know he's applied as "female gender" (self-diagnosed as GD and not on any medication). I raised concerns about the dorm arrangement in the NCS parent survey. The service provider called me and said:

"In line with government guidelines, we will allow the young people to self-ID and they will be put into whichever dorm they feel comfortable in. They'll be supervised at all times".

When I questioned whether they didn't have any safeguarding concerns about this, they said they'll get the NCS safeguarding lead to call me.

I'll ask for their risk assessment, and have studied the Equality Act... but has anyone else dealt with NCS on this issue before? How can they possibly think it's OK to let an entirely biological 16YO boy be in a girls dorm?

I didn't realise any universities had shared rooms. My 4 have all been to uni and all had single rooms. As far as I can remember they all had a choice of single sex or mixed flat/corridor but the rooms were all single.

30 years ago University of Northumbria had shared rooms - you had a central 'room' with your desks in, and then a curtained doorway either side (yes, the curtain didn't reach the sides or the floor) leading to your bed and sink. It looks like that campus has been re-vamped, so hopefully they've all been got rid of.

Mine did, and offered shared rooms at lower cost to the single rooms, so an attractive prospect for harder up students.

Edinburgh university had twin rooms, though singles were much more common. I've just checked and they still do twin rooms- at almost half the price of a single!
(No curtain or alcove)

I'm surprised, my 4 all went to different universities, all chose 5 I think. All the ones they looked at had single rooms so that just seemed normal to me. Friends with kids at unis now all seem to be paying for very swanky accommodation and I'm told their kids wanted en suite rooms and thought sharing a bathroom was horrific, not sure how they'd react to sharing a bedroom with a stranger.

Update: I spoke to the local provider safeguarding lead.

1. They were not distinguishing between sex and gender and didn't want to get into any discussion about the difference.
2. They are bound by the Equality Act which states that a self-identified transgender person must not be discriminated. I said that gender isn't a protected characteristic, sex is (which they were confused about because point 1 above) but they said gender reassignment is. I didn't raise Schedule 23 but should have.
3. I asked whether the girls and parents shouldn't have the right to know in advance that a biological male might be sharing their dorm. They said absolutely no, because provider is not allowed to disclose the fact that someone is transgender because of GDPR
4. They said everyone is asked about accommodation preferences so they won’t be put into same room if e.g. they disclose sexual assault trauma or religious restrictions.
5. I asked what if a girl happened not to say anything specific in advance in the forms and she feels uncomfortable because she suddenly finds herself sharing a dorm with a boy? They said if the girls feel uncomfortable because of a male person being in their dorm (not because of specific trauma events), they need "to be educated to respect the identity" of the male person and anyway YP these days are much more tolerant.
6. I asked about risk of pregnancy. They said sexual relations is a risk anyway because there may be gay yp even in dorms segregated by sex, so it’s not considered a safeguarding issue beyond telling everyone not to do it, and pregnancy in mixed sex dorms is not a sg issue either unless there are specific red flags like a history of sexual assault
7. I asked why have sex-segregated accommodation at all? They didn't know, they thought it was just "cultural" and that some accommodation would separate by age.
8. They thought there is more of a sg risk if my son was put into the male dorm because of psychological damage or bullying.
9. I still haven't got a copy of the NCS sg policy.

Just loved the bit about educating girls to respect the identity of trans girls.

Ok.

You need to ask the source of their training and policy because it is more than likely provided by Stonewall et al, and has been intentionally 'spun' to misrepresent the law to match their political agenda. The organisation run the risk of problems through discriminating against female students in the belief that this is what the law guides them to do.

They need to be aware of the recent EHCR guidance, and that discriminating against females in favour of male people with gender identities is not legal, not a requirement, and that they are likely to particularly discriminate in this against females with trauma, disabilities, CSA, or from minority faiths and cultures, with whom they are providing the option of 'abandon your own needs or be excluded'.

I'd suggest too at this point contacting Baroness Nicholson, Fair Play for Women, Safe Schools Alliance may also be interested although this is beyond their age remit, and Sex Matters. They are more than likely to be willing to help 'educate' this unfortunate group that they have been 'educated' into a lot of politically helpful prejudice and bias by a lobby group they have placed rather too much trust in.

Loads of people will tell you this, but the EA does not state "that a self-identified transgender person must not be discriminated."

"Gender reassignment" is the protected characteristic, but the re is also the understanding that sex can override gender reassignment if it is "a proportionate means to obtain a legitimate end" (or something like that).

They are wrong, basically ...

Yes. But basically they don’t consider girls’ privacy and dignity to be a legitimate end. They might take it into account if the girls have a specific trauma but otherwise they will be told to suck it up

They said if the girls feel uncomfortable because of a male person being in their dorm (not because of specific trauma events), they need "to be educated to respect the identity" of the male person and anyway YP these days are much more tolerant. gaslighting twats. I think they'll find my YP very intolerant and with plenty to say. I'm sadly going to have to be prepared to to go and collect her from her NCS residential if her safety and dignity needs are not respected.

I think you need to go higher up again. I wouldn't bother speaking to anyone on the local team any more as it seems you're wasting your breath. Go over their heads.

This is completely contradictory to the information I received from NCS who said they’d be single sex. I will be avoiding them like the plague!

But basically they don’t consider girls’ privacy and dignity to be a legitimate end.

This must be so difficult for you OP when you understand all this, but it's your own DC who seems set on invading girls' privacy.

And yes, young teens today - especially a lot of older teen girls and young women - are more "cool" with this sort of thing. But they are also hyper-aware of the harassing and predatory behaviour to which they are subject, and I think it might shock them to understand that a "cool" transgirl - to them probably just a gay boy - might still be sexually predatory at worst, or at best, sexually attracted to them.

I think it's a typical teen mindset about being edgy and cool, and this being fun. Mostly, girls and young women get through this with no harm done. But if harm is done, it can be catastrophic.

Thanks all very much for your support. This is indeed very difficult for me. Very emotional and personal topic even without it being about my own son.

There will be follow ups with the local provider but they have said clearly "don't expect us to change". I'm waiting to hear from NCS.

I think their 'don't expect us to change' is a bit premature on their part.

We're awaiting the results from Maya, Allison Bailey's case starts next week, Stonewall is not going to come out of this well whatever the verdict, and the EHCR are getting very clear that the Equality Act is not the TQ+ act.

The time is coming where these captured groups are going to be faced with some facts and problems with their ethics that they might not like, but can not opt out of. And that a woman taking legal action against them may well be an expensive risk to be taking.

I am aware of this too, I sought reassurance that dorms would be sex based not gender based because I didn't want them to agree to putting my "trans" daughter in with boys, which she would probably choose. I got the same response, we usually put young people in whichever accommodation they are most comfortable with. What about how comfortable other people in that accommodation feel???? What about safety???
I really want her to do NCS but really not happy with their stance on this.

I requested to see NCS safeguarding policy. It doesn't mention anything about safety in overnight accommodation except to say adults not to sleep in same room as under 18s!! Loads of irrelevant shit about not using text speak and other stuff. I have replied requesting specific information on their policy regarding single sex overnight accommodation.

NCS policies are available here:

www.learnbydesign.co.uk/company-policies/

(Towards the bottom, marked NCS). Have a look at all of their equality policies.

That's the thing - they see this being about the "comfort of the transgender person". When I asked if they shouldn't be looking to find a solution that works best for everyone, they said that unless there is a specific reason, girls just need to be educated about respecting other people's identity.

I mean, it was someone who thought the reason for sex-based segregation of accommodation for 15/16YO is just "cultural". Perhaps I got pregnant through culture too.

What about if there's an 'incident' with a trans-ident boy? Or are they REALLY confident that that's less likely than with a gay boy?

OP, what if you had a more robust discussion with your son about which sleeping arrangements are appropriate?

I promote NCS in my school and would now think twice. Does your son’s school promote it? Could it be worth involving the school?

This sounds terrible, but, the risk doesn’t sound as great (to me) when it’s a biological male in a female dorm compared to when it’s a biological female in a male dorm. PP described an incident in this exact scenario. Maybe spell it out very clearly to them, in writing, and ask for their response? Do you know a parent of a female who is attending? Could they assist? It shouldn’t have to be this way, but I feel it would have more weight coming from the angle of ‘how will you protect my daughter?’

Are there likely to be females with religious beliefs which would be conflicted by your son being present? Religion or belief also a protected characteristic (I believe they are wrongly quoting gender reassignment here though)

they see this being about the "comfort of the transgender person". When I asked if they shouldn't be looking to find a solution that works best for everyone, they said that unless there is a specific reason, girls just need to be educated about respecting other people's identity.

I'm afraid TQ+ people also need to be educated about respecting other people's identities and needs. Because either the same standards apply equally to everyone, or the deal is off as far as I'm concerned. We're not separating the populace into the special ones and the servant class.

It's also sliding gently but relentlessly into the idea that a T person's needs have only been properly met when someone female has been obviously put down and oppressed for them. It's not enough to meet the T person's needs; you have to prove you've spat upon females and they are scum beside the more important people.

I honestly don't see how any fool could believe this will do anything except further fuel irritation, bad feeling and an increase in people digging their heels and saying no. No more. There is no point in being 'polite' if it in fact means being a doormat without boundaries.

6 I asked about risk of pregnancy. They said sexual relations is a risk anyway because there may be gay yp even in dorms segregated by sex, so it’s not considered a safeguarding issue beyond telling everyone not to do it, and pregnancy in mixed sex dorms is not a sg issue either unless there are specific red flags like a history of sexual assault.

They seem to be saying that young gay people in a mixed form could be at risk of pregnancy or did they just not answer you properly and jump to ‘sexual relations’ could be possible?

re: there point that other yo could not be told there would be a trans person in their dorm, this same principle has been discussed in relation to the Equalities Act and Annexe B in hospitals which was brought up in the HoL by Baroness Nicholson. ( A woman was raped, and the hospital told police there had been no man on the ward, but it transpired later there had been a trans woman.) perhaps you should contact her OP.

keep going up through the channels op. The more light on this misinterpretation of the law the better

I had a look at their policies page. They have a special "trans-includion policy" spelling out that trans people will be allowed to use single sex spaces according to their assumed gender. They do not mention girls or young women's safety and comfort, or single sex provision anywhere else at all that I can see.