Girlguiding dilemma

[Nameychangey33]

Name changed for this in case outing but frequent on this board.

DD currently goes to an activity with a small bunch of other girls. Now all of the girls are joining a group under the Girlguiding banner and I really don't know what to do. DD is the only one not going. If she gets wind of it, and at some point she will, she will feel left out and ask to join. At this point there may be no spaces and I'll feel guilty for not registering her.

I've had a good read of the website, it's all kindness this and inclusion that, and their position is still letting self id rule for members and volunteers alike. Their section on any parent of girls with questions, basically refer them to their page (for 'education' basically!) I think at DDs age my main concern is she comes home from a session talking about pronouns and identities etc. I don't want her subjected to any woo woo at such an impressionable age. I also don't want GG to see her registration as me condoning their position of this ideology, as I really really don't.

I really get on with all the other mums, but I don't want to rock to boat by voicing any of this to them though. But I don't want DD left out, and by extension, me too. I find it hard to make friends, and these are the only mum friends I have. If DD was to join anything like this I'd rather it was under Scouting because you know you're getting mixed sex from the get go. But her friends aren't there.

I'm probably over thinking this, I could just let her go and keep a good eye over what she's learning there.

Not interested in the usual lurkers popping up to tell me what a bigot I am so bugger off in advance. More do I just grit my teeth and swallow my principles because it'll make DD happy to be with her friends.

Hard decision. But for me, it’s unacceptable for my daughter to be taught a load of BS by idiotic adults who won’t put her safety first. I would say no, book something else during that slot that is really fun, and encourage her to expand her friendship group. We really have to say no.

You are probably right. DD will want to do it because her friends are. She may never meet a transchild, the problem may never come up

🤞🤞

Tbh and I'm as GC as they come, the local group leaders are probably quite unaware of HQ's position and it'll be run in such as way as you'd expect and want. I've always felt uncomfortable exercising my principles via my dc although if they are very TWAW then I'd see that as protecting them. Why not ask the group leaders themselves then make an informed decision?

I would say it's not so much meeting anyone with gender identity stuff, child or grown up, we're a fairly small town community where we are and I don't think it's likely. My main concern is what are they going to be teaching her if they bring it up (she is young so they may not but you never know). Do parents get to know what each session is about, if they have anyone external coming in and speaking do parents get told? I've no idea.

Girl guiding has used the School of Sexuality Education to ‘train’ its National Youth Panel. These are the same people doing The Family Sex Show.

Up to their ideological eyeballs in it.

Firstly what do you mean by "a group under the Girlguiding banner"?
Is it GG or not, because the only groups under the Guiding banner are GG units.

Secondly, as an ex Guider, I agree with a PP who said that the local leaders will probably not understand the intricacies of the whole transgender debate and are not ever likely to be in a position where they have to allow a boy/man to share sleeping/washing/toileting space with a girl.

Having said all that though, I left because I was also a District Commissioner who was put on a warning for publicly stating my views of the GG self ID policy on FB, and because I never wanted to be in a position where I was signing off the paperwork for an event where I knew men could be helping small girls to get dressed or go to the toilet without being able to mention it on a risk assessment.

It's a crying shame because GG is fab otherwise though the new programme is pants and I fully support the need for and benefits of single sex organisations, which Scouts isn't.

It's really not about whether she meets a transchild, that's an awful thing to say, Samphire!

It's about being taught that your body can be wrong, that some people need to medicate their perfectly healthy bodies to fit an unattainable ideal, and it's about basic safeguarding.

I was a Brownie and Guide leader until about a year ago (stopped for childcare reasons, not anything else). The only time I heard anything to do with trans discussed was when a Guide said "there's a boy at my school who used to be a girl" and another girl said "oh, there's no one like that at my school" and then they moved on with the activity.

The leaders' own views will vary depending on the person, like anywhere else, but most of the Guide leaders I volunteered with were genteel older church ladies who'd probably be trying to recall their Latin lessons if you brought up the word "pronouns." Of course this isn't the same in every unit!

I don't know if you've looked at Scout's pages on this. They do also describe themselves of inclusive of trans people, respecting pronouns, allowing trans young people to choose which facilities to use, etc. Even though there's been a lot of Twitter attention on Girlguiding specifically, I expect most youth organisations are similar.
www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/inclusion-and-diversity/including-everyone/lgbtplus/transgender-and-gender-identity/supporting-trans-young-people/

I would not touch GG these days.

It's safeguarding. That is more important than going along with the crowd.

Your DD relies on you to make these tough decisions and she might not like it but, as a parent, you have to do it for her.

Yes, that's a dilemma, OP.

I think odds are likely our children are going to encounter genderwoo at some point. Can it be a useful object lesson in critical thinking? Maybe have a chat with her at some point about it? As an agnostic/non religious person, we've already done all this wrt Christian teaching/services at school, and sometimes we've had to discuss how teachers have taught things wrongly (I'm talking maths, here, not any ideological stance).

As children get older it will do no harm for them to learn (they will anyway) that teachers (and parents) are not infallible, that people in positions of authority can be and should be questioned, that it's important to listen to various views on a subject and do research and draw their own conclusions.

• I mean, fucking no way to any overnight trips or sleepovers when it comes to Girlguiding, and I'd probably check out who's running the group, but other than that I favour immunising children to unscientific ideas rather than completely shielding them.

Can you get a feel for what’s going on from the other parents about the actual group dynamics? I tend to agree with pp above that our local one would be a fairly traditional unit that might have a quick ‘some people use pronouns and we should be tolerant to all’ every now and then. I doubt it would be an issue round here.

I do see it a the principal of the thing however.

I'd send her if she wants to go. BUT I would be checking as things go along. Keeping an eye on the leaders who hopefully are more girl orientated than social justice warriors (hopefully) and see what they're being taught. If it's gender woo woo the you unpick it with your daughter.
And if there are any residentials, that's when you make it very clear that you expect an assurance that the Guides will adhere to the guidance from the EHRC - ie no biological males of any age to be sharing sleeping, washing or toileting accommodation. Doesn't stop them being present - but preserves the girls rights to privacy, safety and dignity.

I am very torn, as I am GC and have followed the GG news and know what’s been going on with them.

But I understand the decision about wanting your DD to join in with what her friends are doing.

I have no idea about what your life is like and how busy you are, but could you reframe this, that this is an opportunity to combat gender woo with your DD, her friends and the mums.

I second the idea to personally check out the local group leaders. You say you don’t want to confront the other mothers and I don’t think you necessarily have to. Perhaps just inform them of facts that you think will matter to them.?

Letting your DD join GG is not necessarily condoning their ideology, if you see it as being on the inside is better than being on the outside.
Mostly parents let their kids get on with things and don’t question it too much. You know better. If you maintain an open discussion with your DD about what she is doing at GG, then if anything comes up - you can discuss with the group leaders/daughters, mums.

You will have more credibility opposing something that’s actually happened or been said, than opposing before she’s even joined.

Is it fair to possibly put her in the midst of all this, torn/confused between two ideologies. Possibly not, but this is where you would need all you mothering skills to help her navigate.

It obviously depends on your daughters personality/ maturity etc.But I can think of no better gift a mother can give to a daughter than to question what others are asking of her and setting her own boundaries around her personal safety.

And don’t forget, if she joins and it’s all too much, as her mother you can make her leave.

Do you mean Brownies, by 'a group under the GG umbrella '? If so, its probably not outing to say Brownies.

In the unlikely scenario that there is a trans kid in her Brownies, trust me you will know. The other parents will tell you. If that happens, then you can decide whether or not you want her to do camps or other residential trips.

The HQ end of GG is captured, but at grassroots level, most leaders are not.

I find these decisions difficult too. Realistically, it may never be an issue. My daughter did GG for a while until we moved away from her unit - the leaders who were long time guiders ignored a lot of the current stuff even around badges and such because most of it was such utter crap (I'm not in the UK so I don't know how it compares to what you guys have.) I wasn't overly worried about them bringing up things like pronouns.

On the other hand it's come up in several other groups she belongs to where it was really totally irrelevant to what they did, and in the end we eventually left those activities because they felt like they were not a great environment for a young teen having issues around her body.

My DD goes to guides. It's been extremely good for her mental well-being and that far outweighs my own disagreement in principle with the GG stance on trans and gender ID.

As PP mentioned, the local unit is very unlikely to have any air time given to the subject. My DDs unit is small and the leaders very much run it based on what the girls want to do. There's a fair bit of face masks and pampering which DD isn't into but she enjoys wearing a onesie and chilling at these sessions. They also do lots of crafting which she loves, some cooking, outdoor stuff. The friends she's made there are important to her. Shes autistic and struggles a bit socially but at guides she feels more able to be herself than at school. Probably because the so called cool girls don't do guides so the ones that are there are more on her wave length.

So I wouldn't write it off if it's a place for your DD to be with her friends.

yes, I think there's a danger of coming across too oppositional if you refuse to let her go based on what you fear MIGHT happen, as others have said, its likely nothing will happen or be said.

If it was a big group and in - say - Brighton - I might have more concerns, and I would be especially careful if residentials were on the cards.

However, I think it's OK to let her go and stick to being interested/alert to what the content is. And then treat it as so many non-reigious people have to treat a lot of schools stuff. 'Miss X said that? really? are you sure she didn't say-"some people believe that" ? No? ahahaha, well, as you know, it's not what we believe, but everyone's different' etc etc etc

I feel very uncomfortable about some of the ideas re sexuality ,gender etc that may be detrimental to the safety of my 13year old daughter , however there has been nothing whatsoever so far during her membership of guides that has caused me any concern.
I know they are under pressure to adhere to inclusivity laws but it seems to me that the majority of groups pay little attention to 'educating' girls and the main point of their weekly meetings are social , crafting , cooking , quite refreshingly simple things in an increasingly pressured society.
My child has been through rainbows ,brownies and now coming to the end of guides , her leader is a main organiser for the area we live in and not once have i felt uncomfortable with any plans , activities etc they have done.
I get the impression rightly or wrongly that guide hqs are told what they want to hear by local groups and if someone with a pro noun / identity different to the majority should join they would cross that bridge as and when.
I know this may not be clear enough for someone thinking about joining guides , i can only speak as i find , but where i live this experience is the same for some of my daughters school friends who are in different guides groups in our local area.

And if there are any residentials, that's when you make it very clear that you expect an assurance that the Guides will adhere to the guidance from the EHRC - ie no biological males of any age to be sharing sleeping, washing or toileting accommodation. Doesn't stop them being present - but preserves the girls rights to privacy, safety and dignity.

FYI, If Guide Leaders do this, they will be asked to resign as it's against Guiding's policy.

Trying to be a vague as I can but it's the group for the youngest ones, as it's all on the GG website I thought it's all part of GG. Hence I could be really over thinking this, but there seems to be such a push to deliver the gender woo to younger age groups I wouldn't put it past them if that's the message that comes down from above. But thanks for everyone who has responded, good points all round.

The fundamental difference would be that GG removed leaders who wanted to have safeguarding policy based on a mixed sex organisation.

Any childrens organisation which removes people for speaking about safeguarding is sending a very clear mesaage about how they have weak CSA prevention policies.

Scouts have gone through a process of recognising that people used the organisation to groom and abuse children.

At the top levels they will be more reactive to concerns and imo more open to criticism.

More importantly they are not pretending that they remain a single sex organisation.

www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/inclusion-and-diversity/including-everyone/lgbtplus/transgender-and-gender-identity/supporting-trans-young-people/

Scouts are open about the possibility of having mixed sex sleeping arrangements and the need to provide a range of alternatives to meet the needs of the members.

I note it politely ignores a female going topless for swimming just deals with blinders.

But at least they have people doing the work to include all the children in a safeguarding framework.

Trying to be a vague as I can but it's the group for the youngest ones, as it's all on the GG website

So why don't you just say Rainbows then?

A lot of Girlguiding Units will not run Programme activities on GenderWoo. Especially at Rainbow/Brownie age.

Lots of Girlguiding Volunteers are sticking it out for the benefit of the girls & young women they work with. They can’t voice their dissent because their Membership will be Permanently Withdrawn.

HQ’s ideologues are doing a stellar job of completely destroying over 100 years of incredible work supporting girls & young women - easier to hyperfocus on this than actually tackle the institutional ableism, racism & discrimination directed towards [some] people of faith [more than others]. Girlguiding won’t even investigate the extent of the problem much less try to address it - because they did an apology a couple of years ago & we all know that means that i. they’re entitled to forgiveness & a clean slate & ii. said clean slate absolutely has NOT got dirty since

I would let her go. The leaders won't be pushing this stuff at Rainbows or even Brownies. Deal with any issues as they arise.