Girlguiding dilemma

[Nameychangey33]

Name changed for this in case outing but frequent on this board.

DD currently goes to an activity with a small bunch of other girls. Now all of the girls are joining a group under the Girlguiding banner and I really don't know what to do. DD is the only one not going. If she gets wind of it, and at some point she will, she will feel left out and ask to join. At this point there may be no spaces and I'll feel guilty for not registering her.

I've had a good read of the website, it's all kindness this and inclusion that, and their position is still letting self id rule for members and volunteers alike. Their section on any parent of girls with questions, basically refer them to their page (for 'education' basically!) I think at DDs age my main concern is she comes home from a session talking about pronouns and identities etc. I don't want her subjected to any woo woo at such an impressionable age. I also don't want GG to see her registration as me condoning their position of this ideology, as I really really don't.

I really get on with all the other mums, but I don't want to rock to boat by voicing any of this to them though. But I don't want DD left out, and by extension, me too. I find it hard to make friends, and these are the only mum friends I have. If DD was to join anything like this I'd rather it was under Scouting because you know you're getting mixed sex from the get go. But her friends aren't there.

I'm probably over thinking this, I could just let her go and keep a good eye over what she's learning there.

Not interested in the usual lurkers popping up to tell me what a bigot I am so bugger off in advance. More do I just grit my teeth and swallow my principles because it'll make DD happy to be with her friends.

The biggest issue isn't children who are identifying as Girls. For me it's the leaders

GG allow adults to share the same sleeping space as minors. So two TIM could sleep in the same room as any of the age groups.

This does NOT happen within scouting.
Adults must have separate sleeping accommodation

Just seen on Twitter that Dr Katie Alcock has tweeted that she will no longer be going ahead with litigation against the GG. Not sure what agreement they have come to but it appears that GG have recognised her concerns about single sex spaces. Not sure how to link to her tweet so maybe someone else can.

I don't think GG does allow Leaders to share accomodation with children.
I'd be very interested to see what the outcome of this agreement with Katie Alcock is.

@Justme56

Just seen on Twitter that Dr Katie Alcock has tweeted that she will no longer be going ahead with litigation against the GG. Not sure what agreement they have come to but it appears that GG have recognised her concerns about single sex spaces. Not sure how to link to her tweet so maybe someone else can.

That is interesting.

twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2/status/1516374537126002691/photo/2

@Justme56

Just seen on Twitter that Dr Katie Alcock has tweeted that she will no longer be going ahead with litigation against the GG. Not sure what agreement they have come to but it appears that GG have recognised her concerns about single sex spaces. Not sure how to link to her tweet so maybe someone else can.

@Justme56

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/press-releases/girlguiding-settlement-statement/

They have settled with Katie, this is their statement.

That is an encouraging read!

mobile.twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2/status/1516374537126002691?t=N6mKy04rpaiNyX9jmwKM6A&s=19

Here is Katie's tweet.

Statement in full:

'We have been involved in a legal case with a former volunteer since 2018 and we have now reached a settlement. Please find our statement below.

Girlguiding's full statement regarding its legal case with Katie Alcock:

Girlguiding celebrates the ever-growing diversity of its membership. We are committed to balancing the views, needs and wants of all of our members in a complex and changing world. It’s important that we do this in a thoughtful and respectful way, reflecting our volunteer code of conduct. So we have a diversity and inclusion strategic plan which underpins our commitment to inclusion.

Girlguiding recognises that gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act and that there are girls and volunteers who hold gender critical beliefs within our membership. We respect and value their right to do so, and to express those beliefs. Girlguiding is also, and shall remain, a home for trans people. Whatever their protected characteristics, all our young members and adult volunteers are welcome within Girlguiding.

Girlguiding is pleased that it has reached an agreement with Katie Alcock. We always value the bravery of women speaking up, which is aligned with Girlguiding’s purpose in empowering girls and young women.

We wish to thank Katie for the passion and commitment she has given to Girlguiding which has included running a unit for over 100 girls over the course of 10 years, as well as mentoring young leaders and new Adult Leaders.

We also acknowledge, and are saddened by, the impact that not being part of Girlguiding has had on Katie’s personal and family life. We have extended an invitation to her to re-apply to join Girlguiding.

We have listened carefully to Katie’s concerns. We understand them and take them seriously. Whilst these are complex and evolving issues, we agree that sex and gender are different, and will reflect this in the language we use.

The safeguarding and wellbeing of girls has and will always be at the heart of everything we do. We constantly review and update all our policies in line with government guidance and the law. We welcome constructive feedback from all of our volunteers, which helps ensure we have robust procedures in place. It is testament to the support of dedicated and passionate volunteers that we are able to use their input to refine and enhance what we do.

Our priority is to ensure that we offer a safe space where all girls are welcome to have fun, learn, and grow, and feel that they can be who they truly are. So all adult members are required to follow the same policies and procedures, including our Equality and Diversity policy and the Safeguarding policy, under which volunteers must report all concerns, allegations and disclosures. We have a dedicated specialist safeguarding team who support volunteers with questions or concerns.

We balance the needs of all our members with our legal obligations, relevant guidance and best practice, and will continue to offer support and guidance to members as they need it, and respond to girls, parents and volunteers who may have questions or concerns.

Girlguiding has agreed with Katie that as part of Girlguiding’s diversity and inclusion strategic plan, we will engage with new members, volunteers, parents, carers and girls to ensure our inclusive policies and procedures, and what they mean in practice, are easy to understand.

To ensure best practice Girlguiding continually reviews its procedures and guidance. It also consults with a broad range of external organisations and will consider organisations recommended by Katie.

Girlguiding has evolved for 110 years and will continue to evolve to ensure that it remains a forward-thinking, inclusive and diverse organisation where all girls, young women and volunteers feel welcome and belong. Through the skills, experience, and time of its 81,000 volunteers, Girlguiding empowers girls to find their voice, discover the best in themselves and make a positive difference in their community. Girlguiding is proud to be an inclusive and diverse organisation and will always remain so.'

we agree that sex and gender are different, and will reflect this in the language we use.

YES!

Girlguiding recognises that gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act and that there are girls and volunteers who hold gender critical beliefs within our membership. We respect and value their right to do so, and to express those beliefs

YES!

Glad for Katie that she can draw a line under this, but the GG statement (presumably highly lawyered) doesn't mention preserving single-sex distinctions for girls

It'll be interesting to see what develops. It's certainly a good start.

Girlguiding is also, and shall remain, a home for trans people.

So basically nothing's changed!

But I'm glad for Katie that it's over for her.

@FatFucker

Girlguiding is also, and shall remain, a home for trans people.

So basically nothing's changed!

But I'm glad for Katie that it's over for her.

I'm hoping they mean trans boys (biological girls) or at least allowing parents to be aware of what sex the children will be if sharing a room with girls etc..

GG can be trans inclusive, but members need to be born female.

It’s not perfect but it is progress.

Recognising the equality act is a start. Promising to keep evolving the safeguarding policy is also massive progress from where we were.

And actually when ‘trans people’ means confused kids in need of love and support I’m all in.

It’s the requirement to lie to parents and enable secret mixed sex sleeping accommodation that I object to.

@Beamur

I don't think GG does allow Leaders to share accomodation with children. I'd be very interested to see what the outcome of this agreement with Katie Alcock is.

Yes they do- from their information about residential

Hmm..it does say that! Their website is not the easiest to navigate.
My understanding is that Leaders do not sleep in the same tents, but some venues will not have completely separate areas so I guess this rule ensures that Leaders are never alone with Guides/Brownies at night

@Beamur

Hmm..it does say that! Their website is not the easiest to navigate. My understanding is that Leaders do not sleep in the same tents, but some venues will not have completely separate areas so I guess this rule ensures that Leaders are never alone with Guides/Brownies at night

Leaders are supposed to sleep separately from girls, but it's recognised that not all venues can support this. A Leader should never be alone with a girl in any circumstances, to protect both Leader and girl.

I no longer trusted these adults to be capable of making moral and common sense choices in a unsafe scenario. I was not interested in helping my daughter become a kneejerk wokeavist! I did not let my daughter go to Girlguiding after Brownies. It has been massively infiltrated at the top and is no longer fit for purpose as far as I am concerned.

@trailrunner85

Welcome trans id male = piss off half the village, not welcome them = piss off the other half

How would you know, though? Do you ask on the forms that kids fill in when they join, whether their sex at birth is different from the sex they identify as now?

I only ask because I genuinely wouldn't have had a clue about the trans kids I know, had I not been told - in one case I'd known a child for the best part of 2 years before being told she was born a boy.

It's more about adults identifying as women, but still retaining all their male urges and bits.

As a mother, I'm not worried about prepubescent children sleeping in the same accommodation as much as I'm worried about who the adults are.

The whole ethos of GG from Rainbows to Rangers is to give girls a space away from Males.
To empower them. On a basic level there is nothing wrong with kids being mixed sex. But whatever your views something changes when a male enters a female only group. Social expectations are ingrained in everyone from a very early age. The very idea a boy can identify into a girls o my space shows the boy a massive sense of entitlement straight away. Their feeling has and wants override the girls.
The ethos is ignored for the boy.

The statistics on sex offences committed in schools, both primary & secondary age, are disturbing and should give every parent pause. So those saying mixed sex sleeping isn't a big deal need a wake up call.

It isn't just about the children - it's adult Leaders. This is an organisation where dads are actively discouraged from helping( I have more than a few dads who have told me that different groups refused them to be a parent helper on their meeting night). But say you identify as a woman and come on in.

GG can't have it both ways. It's a perfect example of the conflict of rights the 'be kind' movement invokes

Every time we asked our Brownies if they'd like it if boys were allowed to join the answer was an overwhelming No. Because boys spoil all the games and keep messing about being the two main reasons.

My daughter does scouts - no issues there. Separate boys and girls