Girlguiding dilemma

[Nameychangey33]

Name changed for this in case outing but frequent on this board.

DD currently goes to an activity with a small bunch of other girls. Now all of the girls are joining a group under the Girlguiding banner and I really don't know what to do. DD is the only one not going. If she gets wind of it, and at some point she will, she will feel left out and ask to join. At this point there may be no spaces and I'll feel guilty for not registering her.

I've had a good read of the website, it's all kindness this and inclusion that, and their position is still letting self id rule for members and volunteers alike. Their section on any parent of girls with questions, basically refer them to their page (for 'education' basically!) I think at DDs age my main concern is she comes home from a session talking about pronouns and identities etc. I don't want her subjected to any woo woo at such an impressionable age. I also don't want GG to see her registration as me condoning their position of this ideology, as I really really don't.

I really get on with all the other mums, but I don't want to rock to boat by voicing any of this to them though. But I don't want DD left out, and by extension, me too. I find it hard to make friends, and these are the only mum friends I have. If DD was to join anything like this I'd rather it was under Scouting because you know you're getting mixed sex from the get go. But her friends aren't there.

I'm probably over thinking this, I could just let her go and keep a good eye over what she's learning there.

Not interested in the usual lurkers popping up to tell me what a bigot I am so bugger off in advance. More do I just grit my teeth and swallow my principles because it'll make DD happy to be with her friends.

This is why this ideology has been allowed to erode womens rights so effectively.
People just bury their heads in the sand
It's no big deal until it actually smacks them in their face.

The issue isn't so much about it being pushed at the kids it's about SAFEGUARDING. The GG don't have any!

So it's Rainbows? That's hardly outing is it?

No one in Rainbows is teaching girls about gender ideology - most units are run by very conservative women. There is far more chance that she will learn about gender identities at school or on TV.

I put my daughter on the waiting list for Rainbows 2 years ago. She got in and I decided not to send her.

I don’t think it would be affected at that level at their age but the safeguarding concerns are just too much and if she progresses through the different levels I just wouldn’t trust what they’re being told

I wouldn't as much about the ideology, but I do care about safe guarding.
Young children/people (especially girls) based have no protection or safe spaces (nor do women - but we can hold our own a little easier than a young child).

Therefore how will you be able to protect her from predatory men? In some ways the over night camping/trips etc is easier because you can volunteer to go with them, but I'd be worried about the every week grooming that could be going on.

If I faced this dilemma I would probably volunteer (or my dh volunteer) for the group so I could keep my eye out for my child.

I was a reluctant Brownie. My best friend joined and dragged me along with her.

I stuck it out for a few years, even made sixer but I was never a favourite of Brown Owl. She told me once that it was very wrong of me to not be christened .... how times have changed.

That said, I think let her join and see how she goes. She might not enjoy it even with her friends there.

My friend went on to Guides ... I didn't.

I'm a guide leader and this stuff doesn't get discussed at our meetings. It's never even been mentioned. Guide leaders are not teaching gender woo and all of them in my district completely disagree with girl guiding's gender inclusive policy.

I understand your concerns, but my DD has had a brilliant time with Brownies, Guides and Rangers.
I think they are mistaken with their stance on this issue, but think overall what GG provides for girls is great.
I think GG policies could put Leaders in tricky positions but I think you underestimate how often Leaders have to adjust and make plans to safeguard the children in their care. If you don't have confidence in the Leadership of any group you wouldn't leave your child in their care..
The proportion of activities that might touch on this topic are very small and you can withdraw your child from any session without consequences - it's not like school..

I knew what you meant, OP. I've had my DD signed up since she was a toddler because the waiting lists are ridiculous here. She's now 5, so if a place were to come up, I'll be rethinking a lot. It's a shame because it otherwise looks like a good organisation.

If girl guides were to disappear or become officially mixed-sex because of all this, then that would feel like a massive loss for women and girls

GG is officially mixed sex now.
Or at least, it allows boys and men who self ID as female to join, which amounts to the same thing.
A man in trousers can't join but a man in a skirt can. Ridiculous.

The gender stuff really is confined to gg hq, I’m a leader and I’ve never heard it mentioned. Let her go - once you’ve met the leaders you’ll be able to form an opinion.

Demonstration in point: women will always take a shit sandwich and think about the kids' friends, and think about the poor leaders doing their best to continue to deliver sessions and the leaders struggle on because they put the girls first, and what effectively happens?

The shit rolls on uninterrupted and unchallenged because women will accommodate it and think of others before themselves. And until absolute disaster happens, they'll enable male people to get on with their happy little wrecking expedition in the background.

And this, ladies, is how we have been so thoroughly fucked over for millenia.

I'm a Rainbow leader of 20 years. As a PP mentioned, for sure we'll discuss gender stereotypes eg on IWD (as even in 2022 I hear "girls are nurses, boys are doctors" from the lips of my girls 🤦🏻‍♀️).

Rest assured that most leaders at ground roots level are either rolling their eyes at HQ's ideology or are simply not engaging with it. We enjoy our work as volunteers and aim to empower girls and young women and provide them with an hour or two a week of fun and enjoyment.

I'd say sign your DD up and then suss out your local leaders, if she gets a space at a Unit. I would say it's super unlikely that the trans "agenda" will raise its head.

Cross post with @Sittininafield

@Sittininafield

The gender stuff really is confined to gg hq, I’m a leader and I’ve never heard it mentioned. Let her go - once you’ve met the leaders you’ll be able to form an opinion.

So how would you fill out the REN form for a residential, and the risk assessment, if you had a trans girl or trans woman at the event?

I've set my DD on the waiting list for Brownies and have said that I will come weekly and help with the activities. That way, my DD won't miss out, but I can also supervise if anything is said. I am GC.

@Artichokeleaves

Demonstration in point: women will always take a shit sandwich and think about the kids' friends, and think about the poor leaders doing their best to continue to deliver sessions and the leaders struggle on because they put the girls first, and what effectively happens?

The shit rolls on uninterrupted and unchallenged because women will accommodate it and think of others before themselves. And until absolute disaster happens, they'll enable male people to get on with their happy little wrecking expedition in the background.

And this, ladies, is how we have been so thoroughly fucked over for millenia.

Exactly!! I've got to say I'm really surprised with the amount of leaders who actually know about the safeguarding issues and are complacent about it!

By staying you do realise you are complicit in this safeguarding issue, don't you?

And if, god forbid, some poor wee girl is hurt through this, there is no excuse.

I am absolutely totally shocked. I just thought the leaders were naive middle aged ladies who didn't realise what was going on. But it seems they do!!

There is no way I'd let a daughter of mine go to girl guides now, no way I'd volunteer and certainly not work there! An example of which I've given in a previous thread.

As I've said before if all volunteers left because of the safeguarding issue then they'd have to have a rethink.

I couldn't get overexcited about this tbh. If my DD asks to go to Rainbows, I'll let her go with her friends.
Leaders are highly unlikely to be talking about sex/gender with children that young. And if there is a trans child in the group..so?! My DD has a trans girl in her class and plays with her every day. I don't think she has any idea her friend used to be a boy. I'd have no issue with her playing with trans girls at Rainbows or Brownies, just as I don't have issues with them being at school together.
I can see safeguarding concerns may arise when they're older, but at this age they really are all just kids IMO. Though I'm fully prepared to be told just how wrong I am for not being more worked up about this!

I wouldn't be so hasty to judge the women who stay and volunteer. Assuming all Leaders to be naive older women is rather, dare I say ageist and sexist..
The safeguarding issues that rightly concern you are in reality not happening yet in any significant numbers. NB girls and girls identifying as boys pose no problems. I would imagine any Leaders with boys identifying as girls in their unit will be running all decisions past HQ to take responsibility for. That's what I would be doing. GG are being taken to court by a previous Leader over this matter so I daresay will be keen to 'get it right'.
Recent events with a transwoman leader seems to have resolved after their suitability led to a convenient resignation.
They've already amended their policy on this (previous iteration required transboys to be managed out of GG and this was changed). The outcome of this court case plus the changing narrative on the Equality Act may yet open their eyes to being trans inclusive whilst still single sex. That's achievable.
In the meantime, the vast majority of girls attending GG will continue to have a rewarding and empowering experience in a female only environment.
I do think that they will either amend their admissions policy on this or be forced to be more transparent around shared facilities such as when camping.
I think GC women within GG are needed to help steer the organisation. It's up to the individual if they don't want to participate or let their children join, but in this instance, there is much to be lost for girls if everyone just walked away.

My DD has a trans girl in her class and plays with her every day. I don't think she has any idea her friend used to be a boy. I'd have no issue with her playing with trans girls at Rainbows or Brownies, just as I don't have issues with them being at school together

And what happens when they are teenagers, and they share the same room on a Guiding or a school trip?

What about the Muslim girl who wouldn't be able to go on that basis?

What if it's a transgender 18 year old "girl" who just decided to become trans last week that's sharing a room or shower facilities with your DD?

What if your DD gets beaten by a country mile by her trans girl friend cos, y'know, biology?

So many what ifs

And what happens when they are teenagers, and they share the same room on a Guiding or a school trip?

Honestly, I'll worry about that when it comes. And I know you may think that sounds naive or whatever, but I'm not going to tell my DD she can't play with her friend now, because in almost a decade's time she might still be identifying as a girl, and she might end up on a residential trip with her.

As you say, so many what ifs. I'd rather deal with the issue in front of me right now rather than potential issues in several years' time, which may never arise.

Again, I know that view isn't popular on here, but it's the view taken by most people I know IRL, who have no issue at all with this young trans girl in my DDs class.

You're misunderstanding the point. The issue is not the transgirl, the issue is absolutely nothing like having a problem with a transgirl in a class or a child playing with them, that's a complete misframing.

The issue is the insidious and negative effect on female children when a pretence is maintained that a transgirl is in fact female instead of recognising transgirls as male children and following the same requirements and boundaries as with all other male children.

No one has a problem with their daughter playing with a male child. But ignoring safeguarding, pretending away usual requirements and removing the right of female children to have female only activities and spaces? There's the problem. Right there.

I have no 'issue' with any child or any identity. I have a lot of issues on 'lets cross our fingers while we pretend for the benefit of our nice adult feelings with the vulnerable children in our care' and 'female children can't have anything for themselves'. A whole lot of issues.

@Cascais

Do what will make your daughter happy

No, do what is best for her.

What makes her happy is not always what's best. This is why we, as parents, decide what our children will eat, what time they go to bed and who they are allowed to play with.

@trailrunner85

I couldn't get overexcited about this tbh. If my DD asks to go to Rainbows, I'll let her go with her friends. Leaders are highly unlikely to be talking about sex/gender with children that young. And if there is a trans child in the group..so?! My DD has a trans girl in her class and plays with her every day. I don't think she has any idea her friend used to be a boy. I'd have no issue with her playing with trans girls at Rainbows or Brownies, just as I don't have issues with them being at school together. I can see safeguarding concerns may arise when they're older, but at this age they really are all just kids IMO. Though I'm fully prepared to be told just how wrong I am for not being more worked up about this!

You apply the word girl to a male. The sex of your child's friend may not be relevent to her. At primary ages the offer of friendship is important, the sex of the friend is not. You say your female child can not correctly sex that male child in her class is a male, at what age do you expect that will be able to distinguish between female and male?

If your female child is a girl and the male child is a girl, what word should your child use if she is uncomfortable changing with the other girl in her changing space?

You see that the GG's as an organisation have safeguarding issues which are being ignored.

Would you apply the same logic to the school you girl attends?

At what age group should your school begin to write safeguarding policy to recognise that the school has a mixed sex class with female and male students?

At what age group would you begin to worry if you girl's teacher was saying that she/he did not follow the school policy and had no intention of following the schools policy?
The reason she/he is not following policy is because she/he has no trust in the policy?

That's GG's problem, at grass root level the various women are making independent decisions. The whole idea of having a safeguarding policy is to learn from past mistakes, prevent reoccurances, look at what may go wrong and build a best pratice framework to prevent or at least minimise the risk of a poor outcome.

It's not that a male has or may join the group. It's that GGHQ are determined to deny that their safeguarding framework has to be based on a risk assessment of a female and a male being in any group.

I know that view isn't popular on here, but it's the view taken by most people I know IRL, who have no issue at all with this young trans girl in my DDs class.

I would have no issue with a trans girl in my DDs class either, but you're missing the point.

The point being that GG have an explicit policy NOT to tell parents that there are people with male genitalia on GG residentials, to NOT call this out on a risk assessment, and to NOT segregate these people from the women at the event in areas where they are vulnerable: sleeping, showering, dressing, toileting.

And have demonstrated that they have no problem with leaders displaying a very serious lack of safeguarding, safeguarding knowledge and awareness, or basic social appropriacy and common sense while being in a responsible position with children.