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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Monsoon

252 replies

Awkwardy · 12/04/2022 11:01

Oh, I'm so bored.

Here they go... twitter.com/MonsoonUK/status/1513811068686155778?s=20&t=zQnlx9T5PprC0S2v-ECHxQ

Another one off the list. Who do they think spends lots of money with them?

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12
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/04/2022 15:01

@DomesticatedZombie

Hm. Young male is asked to wait, can't handle it because of special status entitlement, publically sneers at staff member's appearance, age, race. And is rewarded for It? FFS
Yes. We must all bow to the young male gods.
nepeta · 13/04/2022 15:36

@RaspberryChouxBuns

Not sure if this warrants a thread or whether I can just piggyback on this, but can someone explain to me why transgenderism ( ? ) is a feminist topic? Not necessarily in terms of the sanctity of single sex spaces because that's quite an obvious one, but why transgender people expect feminists to help carry their cause and support it unconditionally?

I can understand that transgender people encounter ignorance, hate and discrimination but why in this case, does the perceived "discrimination" of one individual trump the security of all women who use these changing rooms. Surely rather than Monsoon wringing their hands promising an investigation, it'd just be better to change the returns policy so people can try at home and take it back if it doesn't suit - we know it's possible because we've seen it done during Covid!

I'm probably not making myself very clear, sorry. I'm a feminist and I have enjoyed single sex spaces for most of my life in the UK until I moved to a European country- they don't exist over here. There are no girls schools, no ladies only swimming hours, too few single sex toilets... I'm a Mum of three daughters and I miss these spaces, once you lose them they are gone forever.

Several reasons for that:

One is the odd expansion of the concept of intersectionality which in its original form is important, i.e., to address the fact that some women are not only discriminated against on the basis of sex but also on the basis of race or ethnicity or sexual orientation or class or age or disability, and that these types of oppression can work together in ways which is crucial to understand for feminist analysis.

Not understanding it runs the risk that our policies will only benefit those women who face the smallest amount of intersecting types of oppression.

What I mean by odd expansion of the intersectionality concept is that it is often now used to argue that feminists should also fix all other types of oppression, because they affect women, too.

If we go that route, then feminism must fix everything that is wrong with the world. The movement doesn't have the resources for that, and no other movement addresses sex-based oppression.

But this is why some argue that feminism should fight for all causes and perhaps not even prioritise the fight against sex-based mistreatment.

The second is the 'be kind' trend. It's easy to see on social media that women who refuse to 'be kind' in the doormat sense get truly vicious reactions from many while men who refuse to 'be kind' are not attacked in the same manner.

That's because women are expected to be kind and inclusive and to be mothers for everyone. Women are not allowed to have boundaries we set ourselves.

The third is linked on the above two: Once you accept them, then it is imperative to decide how to pick among victim groups when rights clash or when one marginalised group oppresses another marginalised group.

Some call this the oppression pyramid: Those most oppressed are on the top of the pyramid and they will be selected to be the group some types of feminism now will try to help, even if the group thus picked contains zero biological women or girls.

The way Laurie Penny, for one, wrote about the Cologne new year's eve 2015-16 mass sexual harassment is an example of what happens with this approach when it is carelessly used.

An even earlier example I saw had to do with how many who practise the new inclusive feminism couldn't process the fact that at one point black voters in California were instrumental in delaying same-sex marriage to be approved (i.e., one marginalised group had many of its members willing to vote against the interests of another marginalised group).

It seemed almost impossible for them to accept what happened, because their focus was not on the acts we disapprove, irrespective of which group is guilty of them, but on the identities of the groups themselves, ranked in some value sense.

The fourth is more specific to the transgender context and has to do with tying various causes together. Smaller movements often want to harness their issues to those of larger or more affluent movements, and this can be done very easily with feminism once we re-define 'woman' so that sex becomes invisible.

What that new kind of feminism fights for, once sex-based oppression cannot discussed is anybody's guess.

Wow. I did go on and on.

NitroNine · 13/04/2022 15:42

As PPs have noted, this individual really doesn’t have any room to be making comments about eyebrows.

I share in the astonishment that the poor wallflower who so absolutely didn’t want attention chose to complain publicly (rather than speak to a manager or contact customer services - they have WhatsApp & everything - or even email the CEO) and then sought the attention of the press. How very fortuitous that all this should happen just as they have a GFM running for gender-affirming hormone therapy, to help me feel more comfortable in my body, and live my life as a young Non-binary person… I start university in September and in my opinion this is a great opportunity to start my medical transition. One can only hope that they go to someone reputable who will point out that this is, in fact, a terrible time to do any such thing. But their description sounds rather more like the Gender GP model of handing out hormones without proper, full & rigorous assessment: I will get the setup and initial consultation fees payed this week, which will determine if i need bloods taken, or any follow up sessions in the immediate future, then it's regular payments for prescriptions and monitoring :)

And I absolutely wonder what “trauma” means to this crowd with the way they bandy it about, but oh Holy Family, all the angels & blessed saints HOW can anyone even for a moment think that THIS is even close to how it works: to avoid furthering already present medical related trauma, I've elected for a private route?!?

TRIGGER WARNING: SUICIDE

Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers Flowers

The first article linked in the middle of the one about this individual’s gyroscopic self-centredness when I read it was about Semina Halliwell, a 12 year old girl who died by suicide having been raped by an older boy. That article links to one in the Liverpool Echo with more details - the police massively mishandled the case (pressured Semina not to pursue); there were threats made around her funeral; and her grave was desecrated. Perhaps it’s just me being dreadfully callous, but Semina’s story makes it even harder to have any sympathy at all for Charlie. Charlie gets to stroll about performing femininity as Charlie pleases & Charlie sees no issue with using women’s spaces - but Charlie will never understand what it is Charlie’s caricaturing, nor that Charlie is doing so with a freedom & safety girls & women simply do not have.

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 13/04/2022 16:33

From the Birmingham Mail article:

Charlie's friend, who doesn't identify as female but presents "in a more feminine way", was allowed to try on the dresses without any issues, they said.

I’m guessing Charlie’s friend is a girl then?

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 13/04/2022 16:36

I will get the setup and initial consultation fees payed this week

Good to see that grammar school education hasn’t been wasted Smile

Debinaround · 13/04/2022 16:36

@SushiShopSearch

I got a response from Monsoon. Quelle surprise. They couldn't care less for women. Hope they go bust.

"Monsoon is committed to diversity and inclusivity and we want as many people as possible to enjoy our clothes and designs. At the same time, we also want to ensure that all our customers feel relaxed and comfortable when visiting our stores and trying on our outfits.

The majority of our stores are small with limited changing facilities and as such we endeavour to work with all our customers; considering each of their individual requirements, with the aim of accommodating their needs and wishes"

Signed by Zara Gentles, Customer Engagement Manager.

Got the same email. Word for word Angry
LemonSqueezy0 · 13/04/2022 16:49

I had the email response that has obviously been copy and pasted numerous times.

I have replied asking for an actual response to my query, rather than a broad brush "we want to be everything to everyone" PR response.

Interesting that the CEO replied personally and differently. He gave a real response rather than the PR fluff that's designed to make us go away.

KittenKong · 13/04/2022 16:52

Say you are a man and you might get a personalised response and a free jacket or something. They don’t seem to put much effort into female interactions.

MsTSwift · 13/04/2022 17:45

Does this individual not risk being a “Karen”?! All this complaining to the manager…

Staffy1 · 13/04/2022 17:53

Why does someone who is non-binary use “she/her” as their pronouns and want to wear dresses? I thought non-binary meant they don’t identify as either male or female?

PonyPatter44 · 13/04/2022 17:53

That unattractive little boy needs his hard drive checked, IMHO. He also needs to get his eyebrows done

DialSquare · 13/04/2022 18:07
Grin
Monsoon
FOJN · 13/04/2022 18:45

Monsoon have been played.

Why would you offer an apology and a free dress before you have completed an investigation?

If you have an established changing room policy then why wouldn't you outline that as part of your response to the initial complaint?

Charlie says they have just started university; are end of first year proms common?

They're going to be dealing with grifters for months.

gailforce1 · 13/04/2022 18:47

This is now featured in the DM on line - sorry I cannot link.
The vast majority of comments are in favour of boycotting Monsoon over this.
Interestingly, the DM online have placed this piece alongside an article on the withdrawal of funding by Peter Stanton of a Female cycling event and the comments are also favouring boycotting Mr Stanton's business too.

Helleofabore · 13/04/2022 18:52

DialSquare

Grin

You've gotta love Moleatthedoor! She is awesome!

DialSquare · 13/04/2022 19:07

@Helleofabore

DialSquare Grin

You've gotta love Moleatthedoor! She is awesome!

She is! She can always be relied on to cheer me up! I'm not even on Twitter but I do lkie to read her tweets.
LemonSqueezy0 · 13/04/2022 19:13

The mailOnline don't seem to be reporting the full story, about Charlie simply being asked to wait, and the commentary on the shop assistant.

Its better than nothing, as stories like this are getting more coverage (and support!) than ever, but hopefully the update will cause even more incredulity and peak more people.

SolasAnla · 13/04/2022 20:04

@FOJN

Monsoon have been played.

Why would you offer an apology and a free dress before you have completed an investigation?

If you have an established changing room policy then why wouldn't you outline that as part of your response to the initial complaint?

Charlie says they have just started university; are end of first year proms common?

They're going to be dealing with grifters for months.

This⬇️ is the copy paste engagement Monsoon has with its regular customer contact.

Hi, please reach out to our team at [email protected] or click on the ‘contact us’ link at the bottom of our home page and they will be happy to help. You can also WhatsApp directly via the WhatsApp link on our homepage. Many thanks, Monsoon

My first question would be, is the account managed inhouse?

The original tweet complaint and the physical description of the staff member were after business hours.

The (out of character) reply was at 10:30 the next day.
Thats well into when most of the staff in HQ and PR would be active in the business.

They had to have checked the originating account and seen that a description of a public facing staff member had been given. There was no attempt to have a that physical description removed. Social media (Twitter) has a reputation of bringing out the crazy stalker types. Has the company an action to protect front line staff from job related harassment?

They had seen that it was a mini-vial and decided to go with a reaction that the staff member act was so "wrong" that they were willing to offer compensation to the tweeter (it also a risk reduction thing for if they get sued as the complainant settled on a compensation value).

For some reason the decision maker in charge of the twitter account decided to make a public spectacle.

How did they expect it to go well? It's never going to end well when the party complaining has a political motive or when it's about a political issue.
They can't control the narrative on Twitter. No publicity is better that any publicity because its not going to be a winner.
Going public about letting males use what most would expect to be a single sex fitting room in a "women's dress shop" is not going to be a brand enhancer.

Theala · 13/04/2022 20:40

So...university-educated white boy gets minimum-wage-earning black woman into trouble at her job because he was asked to wait for a few minutes. And university-educated white boy feels that he is the victim? Is that about where we are?

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/04/2022 21:01

@Helleofabore

DialSquare Grin

You've gotta love Moleatthedoor! She is awesome!

I believe Moley is a he. Still awesome though Grin
tabbycatstripy · 13/04/2022 21:07

Giving this one a bit more of a think, I think I’ve always assumed shops had both male and female changing, but for shops like Monsoon that probably isn’t true, is it? They only sell clothes clothes designed for women and girls.

But there’s nothing at all wrong with a young male person wanting to wear a prom dress, so they have to have a policy that caters to those who do (or it would be illegal sex discrimination).

Asking them to wait for the changing room to be vacated by women and little girls is reasonable. In their statement (although they also apologised to Charlie) I think Monsoon did make it clear that something like this could happen again.

But if I was paying for Charlie’s prom dress (as a parent) I would be impressing upon Charlie that no, Charlie does not have the right to share a changing space with female people, and I would remind Charlie that there are kids in there. Not a good look for Charlie.

Helleofabore · 13/04/2022 21:15

ooops!!! Sorry Moley! I only ever see their stuff retweeted so I just assumed. But you know what they say about making assumptions...

Catlover77 · 13/04/2022 21:18

Bye Monsoon!

wishitwasaduvetday · 13/04/2022 21:31

I don't really understand the fuss about changing rooms where there are cubicles. I worked at Gap from 1998 - 2004 and it was always mixed changing rooms with curtains on the cubicles. I don't recall one complaint. So how is it an issue 20 years later?

KittenKong · 13/04/2022 21:34

Because women are getting really really fed up of not being ‘allowed’ to have single sex spaces. It’s getting tedious to see ‘folx’ have social media tantrums and stored falling over themselves to say how inclusive they are by allowing males into womens changing areas (and the grovelling apologies and offers of free dresses so salve upset feelings).